i'd like to call to order
the civil service commission meeting
this wednesday january 12 2022
um
all of the members are present
i'd like to welcome our new auditor
matt mcpeak glad that you are with us
um
that will
take us to
um
our
personnel
action forms the first one i think is
kathy rose
[Music]
um i think it it was just
updated so
oh okay
um
mayor maybe you can explain
kathy's situation kathy rose is um
being promoted just based on her time
with the city from step four to step
five
uh it is a
there you notice there's a correction on
the sheet that says corrected step
change date
and that is because
i think on our we had a spreadsheet that
showed her anniversary date incorrectly
so we corrected that
and yeah actually if i can it was she
she was performing those job duties
quite a bit earlier than she was
actually put into the position
and she brought that to the city's
attention and asked that in the judgment
made based on the time that she
originally was put in that job even
though she wasn't given that title and i
reviewed it and thought that was the
appropriate thing to do
right so that the step increases
correct
yep
is there a motion
uh i move that we approve uh ms
uh promotion from step four to step five
i second that motion
all those in favor please say i
um
this is accepted let me back up a second
because the agenda
i just saw it
in the last 30 minutes
um i do want to state that the minutes
from the last meeting are not available
and that i think by consensus
we can deal with those at our next
meeting to get that on so agree
i agree okay
um
the next appointment is tyler snow
i don't seem to have
a forum on tyler
okay
tyler is going to
um
full time at step five is that what this
is saying
um as an equipment operator is that two
eq2 yes okay looks like eq at 11.
um
and so is this
a new hire or
he's a new employee and i'm trying to
which department he went into
uh i believe he had prior experience
that's the higher step
that that i do recall talking to andy
bay shore about
do you remember i don't know what
department though sorry
um
i can get that information
tyler snow which he's with the service
department but his specifically
um if he's which which section of the
service department is that the question
no i was just asking if we were
department
based on our agenda yeah
so
please go in leigh's going off the
contacts clues if i if i'm understanding
this correctly mr snow has just accepted
an appointment to work for the city and
he's coming in at eq equipment operators
uh
step
five
of the equipment
uh
equipment operators uh too that's right
and it's a bargaining interposition
roman numeral too that's right
is there a
motion we accept mr snow's appointment
a second that motion all those in favor
please say aye aye aye it has been
accepted um the elizabeth elman now was
just
added
do we have a sheet on her
i don't i don't
so elizabeth
is has been hired to the part-time
position of
sustainability programs coordinator that
was a position that was authorized and
created by council
in the last budget process
uh speaking beginning at the low end of
the range at 24.28 an hour
i'm not sure but they yeah just in case
i'm at part time doesn't matter
yeah what was the question well kind of
i mean think about all the lifeguards
right well
she's she's a permanent part-time
employee which differentiates from camp
counselors and things like that that's
why that that's the distinction really
any questions
that was added value mr official thank
you
sustainability programs is a part of the
mayor's office
uh it is yes
um i will state that it's paid partially
through the
um
general fund and half general fund and
half refuse fund but reports to me
is there a motion for whatever it's
worth
um
we approve uh ms ellmann's
appointment and i second that motion all
those in favor please say aye aye
has been approved
um
separations grant williams police
department officer
don't know if i have one of those
thank you
i don't see anything checked here
he's retired effectively
i was just looking i saw a retired check
it is
under separation
it's very small okay that's what i
didn't see
um
well i remember that we uh
agreed to uh ken grant's separation as
of december 23rd second
oh i thought you were the second oh yeah
i said in that motion all those in favor
please say aye aye
we have approved that
that takes care of the personnel items
the first item
next is unified
personnel forms
we've talked about this um at the last
meeting
and
um
i think that
that would be very these all look alike
but i don't think that has happened
i i think it is very appropriate that we
have uniform they could be pre-printed
for their department if they do them
individually
discussion
is there
[Music]
no i think my assistant's working on it
right now is that the question i think
we've been working on that good good
yeah okay
um
let's go let's move forward we are
mr mayor has to have a discussion about
selection of
yeah i just wanted to give you guys an
update and keep you in the loop about
the chief of police search
um
so
the chief as you know retired effective
uh
last
week or i guess the week well it was
last week
the 7th of january
we have engaged uh or about to engage a
firm to help us with the search
um ralph anderson um which is a national
firm that does a lot of chief of police
searches
um we're also working with
or
most likely are going to work with a
firm that will assist with the public
engagement piece of the pro of the
process in terms of helping to craft a
survey and distribute it working with
different groups throughout the city and
in helping to craft the candidate
profile and
just synopsize the community feedback in
relation to the position
i would imagine that that process is
going to take the better part of
february probably
the community engagement piece i would
think and so hopefully we'll have a
candidate profile out
end of february march and begin to
solicit
applications to the position
at that time
once we start to receive those
applications
i think there's going to be some initial
vetting from the search firm
and then there will be an interview
committee formed
the details of all this are being
finalized i'm waiting to work with our
search firm to really give us some
intelligence and feedback about what
they've seen recently work and not work
i do have some
in my rough drafts of processes i have
some accommodation for ways to keep the
civil service commission membership
either as a representative of the
membership or in the whole as a part of
that process you guys have been such an
invaluable resource
with
police department
recruitment in general and thank you
civil service work around it so i think
it's really important to keep you guys
surprised with that and part of the
process so i do expect that you'll have
a have a role in that
um and that
i'm i'm excited to see the community
engagement come forward and kind of see
what where we end up with um and what
the next chapter of our department looks
like
what have you done about an interim
chief so captain goff is currently
serving as interim chief
[Music]
and
you know it's probably going to be
at least through april that he'll be in
that capacity
um
historically i
sensed that there was something that the
police chief's
association
helped with is there still such an
association so my understanding is that
they have
in the past with us and maybe and
certainly other agencies help they have
an assessment process where they help
with assessing candidates um
that is a little bit different than the
model that we're looking at um
and
that's fine i haven't seen that when
i've looked at other area searches that
have occurred i haven't seen that be a
process so i'm not sure if that's
something and we might have some insight
into it if that's been a change over the
years
so um there is a ohio association
achieves the police and i think they
were used in
2007
when uh chief reinhardt was selected
my understanding is that the search firm
will take the primary lead in
developing the job description there
there is something
in the civil service rules about the
chief of police too and we can get to
that
but um
once that uh selection or once the uh
the firm engages and um
puts out a recruitment notice i would
imagine it would also have to conform to
posting
requirements and and
everything that uh that the ohio
revised code would require as well so of
course yeah i think that that's uh
something to determine whether the
chiefs association would be an asset in
the process or uh
thank you so sorry just one question
yeah one question so i think this is a
fantastic idea both the firm and the
public engagement possibility piece of
that but as far as cost is that
something
that
is new to the process since we aren't
using i would imagine
the maybe less expensive police chiefs
association was this
i i don't watch the budget meeting and i
should have does is this born by what
where does this come from this money
so we have a budget uh set aside for
uh the civil service commission party
every year that we're just taking this
all out just kidding oh that's a joke
sorry so it is it's not going to be
it's not going to be a free process i
don't i doubt that it was without cost
before but i think um we we interviewed
yeah we interviewed
uh three different firms um before
selecting this one
the price quotes roughly in the range of
30 to 45 thousand dollars um the one
that we're
engaged engaging with is a 35 thousand
uh contract
um we did provide additional funding in
the budget for it i also had some funds
from last year that i held on to for it
and
council has an ordinance they're
considering to add additional funding um
so that would allow for example for the
community engagement piece okay so
that's currently not completely funded
um
so it's not currently funded through
council i will tell you i believe
that it's i believe strongly enough that
it's an important piece of this that if
council doesn't pass that ordinance
there's
other funds in our budget that i would
just reroute to that
does this money come through the police
budget or separate
no no not currently it's through we have
a civil service
contract line item
or human resource contract
it's under human resource contract under
the civil service budget
thank you
and so
the product of the of the anderson
search is to come up with a list of
candidates
so they go from they go from
at the front end doing research
[Music]
with the police department itself
they'll do a climate
analysis and provide
they'll be kind of the main point of
contact for our officers in terms of
what they would like to see in that
position
they will work with our public
engagement end whether it's us or
or a firm that we hire to help us with
it
and they'll assimilate information that
we've gathered into a candidate profile
they'll create the candidate profile the
candidate brochure they'll market that
they'll
reach out to their own existing network
into the networks that
would
naturally go to potential would-be chief
candidates
and then they'll assist throughout the
entire interview process until the final
selection of the chief
so it's very hands-on from from
beginning to end
they have sorry guys who makes the final
selection is it this committee you're
putting together or do you guess that
would be me and with council
confirmation
yeah the mayor
i agree
yeah i mean i'm so i intend to have
robust
inter interface with the community um
it's
i would like to put together a steering
committee to kind of help advise
throughout the process
i would like to have an interview
committee to help an interview
um it's not going to be a decision that
gets made in the vacuum at all it's
going to be something that like where
the input from a variety of people and
organizations
and stakeholders throughout the
communities considered but ultimately
it has to be a candidate who i can work
with who our government can work with
and who will be good for our police
department and our
community and surrounding communities so
more questions
are you anticipating it'll be a national
search
so um
i would be surprised if it's a truly
national national search i would think
it's probably going to be a little more
regional in nature just by virtue of who
you might find generally attracted to
relocating to you know central ohio but
um
i i don't think that there's gonna we're
not gonna stop anybody from applying for
the position and i think that the some
of the syndicates that they've talked
about posting the position will be
national in nature
another question
thank you thank you
um if there isn't anything else we can
move on to our rules and
um
i
i printed out what i meant to print it
off in color but i forgot
mine is
i was going to print until i saw that it
was color 99 pages and i was at home so
i i declined
so what is your pleasure
let me first say for matt that this is a
process that we began two or three years
ago right pre-covered
and
we had gotten
um i'm not certain how far through it
pretty far though i think yes yes yes so
um
rachel is new to this
um as is matt so
we have followed mark
he leads us
through the process
yeah that'd be fantastic thank you
i think is it a pdf that you it was a
pdf i sent you folks i'll see if i can
find it here real quick but yeah that i
mean i didn't print it either because
um because we love the environment
that's it
[Laughter]
i gotta sit back i was chatting with
elizabeth previously
i see a john
uh
is that the right one that is the right
one
please yes
[Music]
really
yes digitally is probably how you want
it it's 89 pages i want it in paper so i
can mess with it but yeah that's
what i we can mark it out that's right
that's right
so once i've
and just as a reminder for you two i'm
sure you don't need reminded but for the
new the two new folks
the
the civil service rules first of all
haven't been even looked at since 2006
second of all
they were to just be real frank a
cut and pace job by somebody who used to
do work for the city many years ago
whose name may or may not be on the
cover of this
document
and i just felt in talking to john and
lee and
andrew blank who was the other guy
pat thank you that that it's just
unworkable and unnecessary so the final
version is going to be that you'll you
will see an awful lot of strikers in
here
i mean because the civil service
commission doesn't do it but it was it
was a cut and paste from a higher
administrative code that applied on the
state level so
um so that's what you'll see here
as
mark has said in evidence of that that
frequently refers to the municipal
civil service not actually
right
good point that's right a lot of places
where it says his or he
yep
so i'm not saying just
i could the other
item to consider in context is that
the
in 2006
there was a different administration
that had different um
needs in terms of developing the civil
service rules so that those rules were
developed on a contract basis
by an attorney
that's right what mark was alluding to
and so um
that attorney came to the civil service
meetings and um build the city for all
of the work that has happened separately
it wasn't the city attorney right yeah
absolutely correct yeah yeah i was you
know
as we've evolved uh mark has been doing
this as a part of his role and just as
we've evolved in in separating
uh responsibilities for the civil
service commission like we do the um the
police test now
we do
it isn't like we the city has hired
consultants to do it which had been
what had happened up until right okay
and that's what i think the mayor was
referring to and how helpful you folks
have been and it really has
what i can tell a great process that's
very bexley-centric instead of you know
bringing in folks from the outside who
try to learn a little bit about bexley
in the process but not like you folks
know so the blogger firm
was used
for a lot of i know
i am aware
um and it just so happens that this is
the also a big part of my practice
overall the public sector labor and
employment so
so i don't know what your pleasure is in
terms of how you want to address this or
people i might just oh sure i'm sorry
another little bit of context so
with the premise that we're going to
reconsider the rules to get more um
more current there was also as i
understood it a change
that the um
negotiating agreements take precedent
over what civil service rules may have
been promulgated in the
and so
and and that becomes a dominant theory
that we have to work upon and that was
the advice that mark gave us so that the
current rules that we would
discuss now and and and perhaps amend
it are going to be in conformance with
um
with negotiated agreements or elements
of the negotiation
i'm sorry with elements of it i think
overall the negotiated
what happens with employees in
bargaining units really doesn't come
before this commission
almost totally exclusive i mean that's
almost a 100 accurate statement now
entry-level things you know who
employees are getting hired into
bargaining units obviously new hires in
the police department in particular yeah
that that's you have a huge role with
that um but issues about i mean it's not
happening for anyone listening but if if
if bargaining unit employees are laid
off it's they would be laid off
consistent with their collective
burgundy agreement not with civil
service law if a bargaining unit
employee is disciplined they would be
disciplined under language in the
collective burgundy agreement and their
appeal rights would be to arbitration
instead of coming here so
so the role of all civil service
commissions in every city has
become smaller just by the nature of
collective bargaining um and some
changes to civil service law over the
years should that statement be in here i
don't think it's needed to put in there
necessary because all of it's by
operation of law and i'd rather i would
rather avoid too broad of a statement
and then
oh we forgot this one thing and it comes
you know so i don't i don't think it
needs to be in there but you can see as
you once you get the copy
that
so much of the uh of the rules that have
been uh current in 2006
do not apply now that's why the the
red
items or the items in red have been
stronger mark i read the ohio revised
code sections about the civil service
commission are those i know sometimes i
mean i didn't do a case law search and
make sure that everything was you know
up to date but do those reflect i mean
those are current right yeah they're
current absolutely so everything there
is going if we would
make format things based on what's
currently in the revised code that would
all be proper
yes i only has yes the answer is yes
there is a historian sounds like a yes
but well
yeah the answer is yes okay no
qualifiers historically though there are
things and and so one of the things that
that section of the statute i think it's
124.40 of the revised code says is that
the civil service commission shall
promulgate rules for carrying out their
duties i'm paraphrasing that's what
these were or are i should say um again
the the this
to give get you into the weeds and even
more
for the state of ohio and for counties
historically the ohio department of
administrative services was responsible
for all civil service aspects for states
and counties civil service commissions
for cities
das promulgated a bunch of the stuff
that's in here in rules for cities and
counties i'm sorry for the state and
counties that really aren't applicable
to cities at this point as lee indicated
and
frankly they don't even do it for
counties anymore they only do it for the
state too so there's been a lot of
changes a lot of scaling back of civil
service requirements i mean for example
the normal rule used to be
when i say used to be 30 or 40 years ago
was that employ all positions with the
exception of
very i don't
limited
i don't want to use the word menial but
for the with the exception of some
unskilled positions all positions were
tested everybody had to take a civil
service test to get a job whether it was
a secretary whether it was an eq2 that
we talked about or a dispatcher or a
police officer now almost all of that's
gone by the weight side except for
police officers because
under civil service law in ohio you the
the the rule is and under the
constitution that employees had to
public employees had to be hired based
on merit and fitness and we've gone
gotten way past the idea that the only
way to do marriage and fitness or
measure it is through a test in fact
that's probably a bad way so so merit
and fitness still applies it's just
usually an interview and you know the
traditional things that we're more used
to in the workplace i think it makes
sense so the standard applies is just
the instrument has changed or the
process has changed on how to determine
maritime fitness yes that's right
absolutely that makes sense so when
someone is hired like um
tyler snow yeah eq too
when he's introduced to
um the city uh
personnel department or
if there was a person there was a person
right
what i'm saying he's introduced to his
um
his service with the city right is
is there any discussion about his rights
as an employee at that point does he is
he made aware of the fact that he's in a
negotiated
position i'm sure he is
yes i'm sorry interrupt and that and
then and then i'm sure he is told
in general terms what's in that contract
because
and oftentimes by the union not just
necessarily management because they're
trying to sell
you know the union sell sell themselves
to the new employees so yes now are
there do they get into details likely
not but that does happen thanks man
so so
he's hired he's um
does he have to join the union he
doesn't have to join the union but
whether or not he joins he's still
subject to the provisions of the
collective bargaining agreement okay so
the discussion of his job protection at
that point
it it should be clear to him that it's a
part
his job protection is a part of the
negotiated agreement yes it should be
clear to you
uh in addition to that
uh
negotiated agreement likes
there's also a right to an appeal to a
civil servant that's right because a
there's not and b
that's not normally what is
yeah right
yeah yeah no no
it's a good question
so we understand how it works on a
practical level and not just words on
paper right
so i have a question as far as i'll come
i'll get up to date on what's been done
over the last
however long you guys have been in the
middle of this process but as far as the
work that we're going to do and of
course i'm thinking of um charter review
because it feels slightly similar
although this seems you know like we
have more capability to chop um and
easier
how will we do this mark do we need to
do this at our quarterly meetings is
there like with is there could we
schedule other meetings because this
feels like huge gaps it is it's really
tough
i mean we we
much of this work till this point was
done in
early morning meetings right so we would
go through 20 pages and people would say
okay is everybody go with page two so we
can do it that way i am happy you can
certainly individually contact me and we
can talk about it or communicate via
email or whatever with if you have any
questions you obviously can't talk to
each other outside of a meeting about
these roles um so that that is um
and again that's like like lee just said
that's how we did it i think we're
probably unless somebody has a better
memory than me we're probably starting
over from the beginning
i would think yeah and that way rachel
can participate fully although perhaps
if it's still good and it still looks
good we can move more quickly right that
would be the hope okay
but but i yeah i don't know where we've
stopped i don't remember it so then
so then logistically can we just
establish those meetings i think i if
with enough advance notice i could make
a morning work um and then we could make
some progress normally when we end this
meeting we would talk about do we
when do we want do we want to do that
when where what time
um if if that
is acceptable to you
mark as i re-read it i had
um some thoughts that okay
one that i wanted to share with rachel
is that
we struck the whole section on
performance reviews
and my sense was that was done because
the reviews were not being done
not by this commission right
they weren't being done by all
departments you're right about that
about that you're right um
i still question whether they should be
done or not but i'm i'm not hot on that
topic it just
um they should be done but again
it's easy for us to sit here and say
they should be done it's a lot harder
for department heads to do it because
it's not it's not an easy thing to do
but it's it in the police department it
is required yeah they do it in the
police department they definitely do it
in the police department absolutely and
i'm sure it's part of their
certification and all sorts of things
yep
um
two other things and i may be wrong on
this um i think it says that employees
cannot sit for exam again for six months
i think the police department rules are
they can't sit again for a year
does that sound right to you sit for
a
if they have taken exam
and they
didn't make the list let's suggest
that they can't sit for
another exam for a period of time
um
well i think you mean you mean then the
nts the the national testing service uh
i think for promotions is what you're
probably referring to
okay then i missed
that part
my understanding is that for um
for promotions there is not a written
exam
so that so
that for for sergeants
it's it's pretty much an oral process
well it's the process so so
i i will look at the language
to remind myself but a couple things one
is you're right
the ntn is the national testing network
so the national testing network is what
is um
what bexley and most other cities now
use instead of conducting their own
promotional exam that you guys would
proctor and make sure you know i mean
i'm sorry entry-level exam entry i'm
sorry and so um so that wouldn't apply
at all because we don't i mean if
somebody takes it then ntn
um
or
that test and they take that test and
they show up and they we may or may not
the department may or may not hire that
person or even interview that person so
that's why i'm thinking it's probably
promotional and
i'll again i'll look at the language but
as a practical matter
when a promotional exam is given
a list is established as you folks as
the two of you know and that list is
good for at least a year so there's no
there wouldn't even be another exam for
at least a year so i'm not
that
no i'm i don't i don't think it's a year
i don't i i i i'll obviously i'll look
at it i mean hypothetically i mean if
you're just using the year as a time
period but i i think that um
that it's a shorter time period at least
for patrol officers
no i'm talking about if a test is given
today and a promotional list is created
for sergeant
a new test won't be given for at least a
year that's what i'm thinking that's
what i'm hearing if it were patrolmen it
would be normal
but that's what i'm getting right
my understanding is that there is no
test for the sergeant position
so there's a test it's not just it's not
a written exam it's graded
thank you
um
it's but it but it's
it's it's oral right but it's still
graded and a list is still created um
by people who you know however they
decide to do that it's more subjective
than a you know check abcd as an answer
but that's that's normal too and that's
a better test frankly and it's different
than the nts
ncn you mean at yeah so right rachel
what happened is up
until
maybe
2015.
good guess
we did paper and pencil tests we went
when there was a position that was open
we went to the high school
we posted the position people
were uh
the
um
that people came from out of state and
and
it was it was a defined date and time
and the tests were graded we graded the
tests
and um
then the top 20 let's say we're given
physical uh the physical requirements at
the high school doing the um you know
the the track and all of that
so
in 2015 that that changed we did
research we went to uh mtn which is out
of seattle
they don't do paper and pencil it's all
electronic and instead of factual
situations on paper
on printed it's video
scenarios which are close to you know
real-life situations and scores are
accumulated that way and then when a
position gets posted and um
the
the process begins
the captain has traditionally
looked at a cutoff point
and then
um decided let's say that there are 10
candidates above that cutoff point we'll
start doing the backgrounds
okay
so it's you know that that's
and that's unique to the police
department under the civil service rules
if nobody else tests
that's american fitness but positions
are posted they're both internally first
and then externally and then people can
apply
the criteria or the positions
are something that we can
advise for police officers i know that
we had there were there were changes in
terms of like i remember marijuana use
you know what the period for that was
and whether or not that's still going to
be current week that's a good point yeah
talk about
that and and that is something that is
in
marijuana user being caught smoking
marijuana being being caught and how
long ago you've done it i was gonna say
there's a difference just remember that
that
and and this has happened as you know
um
the
posted the elements of the posted
position
is the stand or the standards to which
any candidate is held to
so
even if they go through the
background check if they get to the
polygraph which is the last part of the
selection process
and the examiner goes over what those
elements are
and there's a
variance between the polygraph result
and and what the posted position is
that's that's always reported
you should actually it would be
interesting i find it very interesting
you should look at i'm sure we can get
it for you the actual questions that
they ask at that point in the process
i've never received them they're usually
they're very i haven't seen bexley's
actually i've seen in other departments
they are very intrusive but legitimately
intrusive because you're asking
police candidates you know but it's it's
really interesting and uh
it's a pretty thorough process and then
the background i mean that's just
forever you know it's a huge process
detective bureau
once
there's a posted position
the
a lot of time in the detective bureau is
used in doing background investigations
i mean
we've had candidates you know from
cleveland and
they go on the road and interview
neighbors and in a home visit
yeah i mean
exactly right and and uh we've had
candidates wash out based oh sure
no i think you have a list do you have
more to ask mark i just have one more
um it had to do um
with
partisan
and what people were allowed to do
is partisan defined someplace
it is
defined
yes and no
and it's defined by examples but
basically person political activity
means either i'm an r or a d and i'm
actively supporting them other than
here's some money and stuff like that
i'm just saying
oh is it is it in here to find them here
well there is i think there is a rule on
it that gives it that i think there is a
rule on it there is a rule on partisan
which i read but
i
um
my in sophisticated reading was i don't
know what i i think i know what it means
but i really don't know when
how broadly does it go is it kind of
what you're saying so yeah so to answer
your partisan under the laws
so what partisan is under so again the
idea if you take a step back and you
know
the idea is that we don't want people
bit merit and fitness we don't bound
people hired because they support
republicans or they support democrats
all of the do's and don'ts are there
right it was clear so the party right
and so the the way the law defines it is
through examples of do's and don'ts
and so um i can't give you a you know
two-sentence definition but basically
the minute that i i decide to run for
an office that requires me to be an uh
potentially to be an r d even if i'm
running as an independent
that's partisan political activity but
let's talk
smiled wrong not covet
any more questions can we get into it
did you have more i don't have any
questions right now
mark take us
all right so
and and again if uh you know
i have not updated a table of contents
that will happen once we have a final
product but if you get go to page one
chapter one um you know basically a lot
of this is clean up um you know we still
need the public notice i put in you know
a2 there in the middle of the paragraph
because public notice is still you know
we it's silly to say we're going to put
it in a newspaper um you know posting on
the city's website
the
you know selection and duties of persons
connected with the examination again
none of that happens anymore so that's
why those changes are there what i don't
recall if you look on page two and
please stop me if i'm just whipping
through this too fast i don't recall
what i meant by collaboration with city
department they're at the top of page
two
i have to give that some thought
well and you have a comment down here on
examiners
or board of examiners
yeah and page 12
page two pages well our numbering is
differently
oh man
i purposely sent the same thing to
everybody how did your numbering get
different
like i think so chapter one powers and
duties
that i see a collaboration with city
department is on page 11 page
yeah
i'm with
the rest of the the table of contents
essentially
okay
yeah so that's confusing but i think i
can probably
yeah all right so so again chapter one
let's just now so we're looking again i
i've just tried to modernize and update
the powers and duties
and as you pointed out rachel consistent
with
124.40 of the revised code i just need
to go back and give some thought to what
i meant by collaboration with city
department
i i have no recollection about that
sorry
um and then you know again even in 1-5
the meetings
there's no reason to say it's going to
be in city council chambers i mean it
can be someday it might be at that
senior our new senior center i saw that
when i re-read it yeah it's like i was
concerned about it if this is closed
i i agree let's take out
yeah i mean it's just so just up to this
point i mean i don't want to yeah to the
ground but but so
ralph anderson an associate is coming in
outside consultant today
would that be
the section 1-3 collaborate special
examiner's outside official service of
the city
in that context
perhaps
perhaps i i mean i really need to i'm
just putting a big question mark here go
back and look at it
actually it does seem as if it would
apply i'm trying to i this isn't for my
first reading
um i'm not sure to what effect it just
basically says
that we would be like using them
pursuant to
so chapter one so that's where that's
where i'm headed is
like since the mayor
is the appointment authority
and this
rule says that the commissions may
designate the commission they designate
special examiners
do we need to be involved with that or
is this just for something else that
other positions that
it's hard to imagine when else we would
invoke a 1-3 except for a very important
position right
yeah
except how do you define important
well
well see it says this exceptional
qualifications and then it lists out
some things
where persons qualified to prepare such
they're not readily examinable or
available sorry i mean i'm not sure what
the
ultimate effect would be but it does
seem to apply
interestingly
so
and again
what what i'm thinking is
if
you follow
everything the way that the mayor's
gonna scope it out you know and and
follow the process
and then
someone in the community comes back and
says well wait a second what about 1-3
do we have any no because it's only
about inc
connected with examinations there's no
examination here i think with a new
chief there won't be
i mean so so i think what this is
designed to do is to prevent i and this
is total guess on my part
the language that was in one three is
designed to make it clear that the civil
service commission cannot say to
the police department because that's
really where it is you're going to use
the ohio association of chiefs of police
if the police chief says the head of the
department says no i want to use
x instead of y i think that's what it
says here is that you can't you have to
make sure that it has to be done
consistent with the wishes of the
department where the testing is being
done but again
the lack of testing the last lack of an
examinations that occur mean that
this section is almost irrelevant that's
why i think we were taking it out so so
just to be clear yeah
so if this is irrelevant here you know
for the chief of police
but if we do an oral exam for promotion
that's where it could be
is there a difference in interpretation
from
this rule
to
the oral exam for a sergeant
and there could be in other words again
if you're you're doing an oral exam
first if you're doing a promotional exam
for surgeons what this section basically
is i read it now reread it now says that
you can't say to use my example to the
police department we're the civil
service commission and you shall use the
high association of chiefs of police or
any other group and i know you wouldn't
do that but i think what this is saying
is that you can use outsiders
to to do
to engage the the actual promotional
examination but only with the consent of
the department head isn't that what was
deleted though right that's why i'm
saying maybe we should keep it now that
i'm looking at it i didn't say that
that's what was deleted and again it was
deleted i think initially i deleted it
because it just happens it never happens
and that's where i think i said
collaboration with city department that
maybe what i meant to do is go back and
replace it with language this is very
helpful to discuss this replace it with
language that said if this if you're
going to use an outsider that it needs
to be done collaboratively between the
department that's affected and the civil
service commission
but then just to make a little bit more
of a distinction
if
it happens
where the mayor is the sole appointing
authority
is and and the safety director does that
come into play it would never come into
play because the safety director is
unclassified okay i mean i'm sorry you
mean as the safety director is
appointing the chief
right is it isn't that how the process
goes no yes it is but it would only come
into play if there's an actual
examination
so that's why
because it says
selection duties are persons connected
with examinations and the only
actual examinations that the city does
are promotional examinations for a
police officer to go to sergeant again
they're an oral you know right but it's
still an examination
yeah i was looking through here to see
if at any point they say another noun to
broaden the category but only
examination is used right
so it it isn't hiring pride you know
sometimes you'll get a list of nouns
hiring process examination recruitment
and that's not only examination issues
so
so um does that are you do you have more
questions any follow-up lead no i don't
i i think that that that's the kind of
clarity that
again i just that i don't want to go
through this
practically speaking
you know we get to may the mayor makes a
choice and then somebody in the
community comes back and says well
there are rules that weren't followed
yeah
they're going to have a hard they would
have a hard time doing that with the
chief position
two thoughts i think he just
collaborated with us
yeah good point and
the second thought is our involvement
with the police department is only in
hiring
so if there's a test for the sergeants
it's not under civil service is it no it
is it is it absolutely it is
in fact back in here you'll see there's
there's provisions in here that talk
specifically about your role with
promotions in the police department but
you've still
always said to us the contract
overrides okay that is a very fair
statement so let me qualify my or
explain myself a little more
the contract doesn't speak to promotions
it falls back to you folks so that's why
yes the contract overrides so if we put
something in the contract and agree with
the union this is the process we're
going to use
that could but it's not in the contract
so you guys do it you first said we were
only involved in the hiring so that's
a refinement of my understanding yes
that yes
but
the two positions in the department
practically speaking the chief and the
captain's position
are not part of the bargaining unit
correct
exactly
so
that
yeah i mean i i can imagine
if you got into the weeds on that you'd
have some some issues oh we can get into
the weeds but we don't need to yeah we
can if you want i mean i'm just no i
you're absolutely right
there are there are so much case law on
so many minutiae points of promotions in
police and fire departments it's it's
crazy well we i this may have happened
before
you became city attorney
when when
dawn overly was
promoted the sergeant do you remember
this um there was a complaint oh i was i
remember it was before i was city
attorney but i represented the
city in that lawsuit that that
disappointed police officer
right
and um you know we we had followed
everything correctly
and um
there was el i think it was one
educational element that was the
yeah the few was about but
but
again i i want to do everything that we
can to
prevent right things like that from
reoccur so
looking at one four i'm just the utility
of this mark so is my understanding that
all of the paragraphs that we've been
discussing right now are really relevant
only for the only existing examinations
which are oral examinations for
promotion
is that right in the police department
only okay correct that is right so this
is a very niche chapter
well
yes by
now it is when it was first written who
knows when pre-2006
it would apply to other positions within
the city okay
but that's right now again that doesn't
mean that
the city the city could say you know
what no one we want the civil service
commission to be responsible for
promotions i don't even know where it
would be in the rec department you could
do that i don't think you should but i
can't imagine a scenario in which that
would either
right of course not so it is very
limited application that's correct so if
that's true if we're going to keep the
language
maybe we put it somewhere else
do you i don't know how much of a moving
around thing we're doing but when i
start reading rules i'm like okay we're
getting into it and then when i get into
this with the examinations piece i'm
like well this is barely relevant ever
like could we stick it back in the back
or does it need to stay there
um do you see what i'm saying it's
specifically defined under police
well because because practically you're
saying you're saying rename it to talk
about what it is more specifically yeah
the more i don't really reflect the
reality of the whole um the whole
process
because so name the chapter better so
that people understand what they're
looking for because i mean i am a decent
reader of law and rules and i'm still
kind of trying to understand again a lot
of this is a result of cutting and
pasting from the ohio administrative
code so that's why you see it here
and i mean even look at it there's uh
you know
1.4 it has that says state i mean i
caught it and said we're going
instead of city i mean it's it's a
direct cut and paste except the word
commission was put in there so okay
so
i mean i guess we can worry about that
later just like what we did with charter
where we kind of can talk about moving
things around but while we're here
um i see that there is a comment delete
reference to audit under one four um
i think that's chapter eight
i believe that my recollection is that
is chap chapter eight is dealing with
deals with audits and that's why i put
the note there to delete that reference
because there isn't going to be
it doesn't apply it doesn't apply okay
so we would just
delete the reference to chapter eight
delete the word audits
but the does the rest of it apply
almost seems a bit like a restatement of
one three
to a point
it seems it seems a restatement of what
it seems i i mean again
i'm not saying that this is i thought
this at a time but it may have
is that that's another reason to get rid
of current one threes because
current one five which would become one
four covers it anyway it says you can
appoint somebody again i don't
i just don't understand the purpose of
one three the more i think about it
so okay so the final is on this
you're talking about old one three old
one three yes and that is special
examiners outside
official service no
that would be new one three that's old
one four
oh i don't have the these old
oh my god why do you oh how did theirs
print differently than mine and jazz
what do you what
i think that's the only difference oh
you didn't yeah well that's a big
difference you should have this you just
have the comments oh
we can for the purpose of today i think
we can keep going through um but so i
think what i'm hearing you say mark is
that we could
we can coalesce this and uh
so we could keep it but we but we should
probably just coalesce it into the few
sentences that may at some point in time
if all stars align ever be used i think
that's exact that's that is a very good
summary
okay so that was and so
that would also apply with uh chapter
eight as well with examine
the only examinations are going to be
specifically
for the police department
in all likelihood but let's let's yes
but let's i think doing it a step at a
time otherwise you're gonna confuse the
heck out of me
summarize into a few sentences that
could be relevant potentially maybe
someday if right
if all the stars align exactly
that wasn't supposed to happen
do you know how to turn the generators
on now
[Laughter]
because so to me um
so the meetings is helpful um that's
actually useful info that um i would i
would put somewhere else so that people
see it right off the bat um
i agree about deleting the location
um
so i think that that's actually the most
useful info i've encountered so far
[Laughter]
um
do you agree john so um okay
um
[Music]
so it almost makes sense to go
on uh nevermind so in chapter two the
two of you aren't gonna have all the
strikethroughs and there's a ton of
strikethroughs
um
again because number one there's things
in here that shouldn't even be under the
baileywick of
the civil service commission for example
the old rules the current rules i should
say have a definition of active work
status that's just there's nothing no
reason civil service commission ever
worries about that we haven't used the
margin
yeah we just don't have that oh you have
you don't know what was deleted
okay
are there other i mean
there's no new definitions that i could
think of
is the first one that we're keeping and
then we jump oh i see i see there's more
that comes
break into service
again a lot of these definitions come
from
the you know the revised code
not all
some of them are just
traditional civil service definitions if
you will
again if you want to look well i won't
talk say what page it's up because
that's a certification and certified
eligible list
so
again that's something that you might do
in the context of a promotion maybe
um is that you will certify a list and
say this is the eligible list as a
result of this oral examination that was
given on such today we're certifying
that they finished in this order of the
scoring order
but otherwise you would never do that
because a certain
certificate an eligible list means a
list that's generated as a result of a
civil service examination
of some sort right so that raises the
question
we do police examinations and we go
through the process of the interview you
have the ranked order
but that order can get shuffled after
the private ecological yeah
so you don't really do that the only
place i think you do it still is with
promotions to sergeants
that again somebody's doing
or captain that's possible too that's
right
yeah yep exactly
okay
so
again pretty niche here um
what page are you on for that
well
we have different pages or what section
we are on
chapter two
and just going through the definitions
ah
and most of them are going away
in my recommendations
[Music]
oh is that the uh is chapter three
on it see that's what i was referring to
earlier wasn't eight it was three that
goes away because you don't do that ever
and i don't even know oh you would never
do that
again this is something i'm happy to
share with you my early days of practice
when i used to work on this stuff but
nobody wants to hear that story
well then you have a problem
um and it used to be again primarily on
the state and county level that you'd
have these job descriptions and
employees could file
an appeal to the
state and county equivalent of a civil
service commission which was
the state is the state personnel board
of review and they
could look at a job description say no
you're being required to do job duties
outside your job description you should
be reclassified to x or they have to
stop making you do those job duties
or i've given you no job duties to do
and and taking away all your job duties
which means which is also a violation of
civil service law
it was page 13 although we i i jumped
there because lee mentioned it and
because of my abv
um
see because it's all struck so that's
why you don't see it on your version
well then
it's here
the
sections that are deleted
in yeah there's no practical application
okay so
the um
all right
i see so it's not chapter is chapter
three that you said correct
i was confused by that
when that gets adjusted we'll just
delete the references for chapter three
and audits and then
all of the chapters
can i go back to page six
i can follow page six because you have
the same copy as me
is
silly but it says
classification
you're right that's a that is
improper grammar thank
at the bottom you have a comment more
than 30 days assuming emergency
appointment is a maximum of 30 days you
are
assuming questions should have before
correct that's right
and again here's the practical reality
the practical
this language is in civil so it was in
civil service law because they didn't
want people to screw around say i want
to make an emergency appointment for
four years and not
go through the civil service process the
reality is again
you we don't go through the civil
service process like you used to
and so the mayor because he's the main
appointing authority in the
city the only one um can say i'm gonna
hire somebody on an emergency basis
doesn't even have to use the word
emergency
i'm gonna do it for i'm just gonna hire
somebody
and he can do that as long as the
money's there and you know all that
those other things so
emergency appointment doesn't even have
a lot of meaning
was that would that like comply with the
interim chief is that or acting not even
that an emergency employment would apply
in a situation where
you kind of say oh crap we are going to
have a major we have major issues with
and we need an engineer on a city
engineer employee employed by us for the
next 30 days or something like that yeah
right
it could be an example of an emergency
appointment well there's a temporary
appointment there's temporary
so i think that's probably right it's
hard to understand the difference there
and i don't think there really is a
whole lot of difference again civil
service law is historically and it's not
as bad as it used to be so
can we just get rid of emergency
appointment is that true yeah
we can get rid of emergency
i think what i'm hearing is
it has a limited use anyway and it has
maybe a twin brother called temporary
and so
or
fraternal
we knew it not identical
sure so
under a little bit familiar with this as
a public employee no no no no i would i
actually i mean i know what i am but i
don't know the details oh you're on
class right because you're an assistant
attorney general and by statute they're
all unclassified i've always been
unclassified right like an attorney yeah
yeah right that's right um but uh so so
under civil service law
everybody's in a classified position
unless they meet
one of the defined exceptions some of
those exceptions are defined
by
the type of position and some of those
exceptions are defined by the type of
job duties that somebody might perform
most of the exceptions that would apply
to bexley most of them are in
124.11 of the revised code and there's
just a
laundry list of exceptions and so for
example um
you know i am sure
that when the mayor hired his new
executive assistant he did not tell her
if she's classified her own classified
right i think i did oh you probably you
may have oh that's terrible but she's
clearly unclassified whether we told her
that or not
[Music]
you know
of the type of job duties she holds a
fiduciary relationship to the appointing
authority so that's one example of
unclass that is that is a little bit
nauseous i'm sorry we're getting off
crap and i really love to stay on track
because some administrative assistants
that i've worked with have been
classified and some are unclassified
because under
124.1188 of the revised code
some of them don't do
some many of them don't do this kind of
work that
natalie does and but
an appointing authority no i'm sorry an
elected official actually has the
authority to designate up to four three
or four
um
administrative assistants or
administrative or clerical people as
unclassified regardless of their jobs
just to have those personal assistants
again most of the people here are
classified except for those people who
are i'm sorry unclassified except for
those people
just real quickly and not to interrupt
point of order the rec board has a 5 30
meeting here
and
just so you know
yeah
[Music]
i just wanted you to you're gonna start
to see some folks head in and and uh
i think there might have
on our calendar this is a four to five
so i think the and the rec board had to
be rescheduled so i think that was just
some miscommunication internally so
i apologize if you start getting looks
you're good to go keep going i'll stop
talking
[Music]
shouldn't be a loaded question but it is
um
you know again i'm going through some of
these definitions and you know the more
i look at the more there are other ones
that can be
probably be taken out but we i don't
want to go overboard either for example
they're on your page eight john there's
something that's called open examination
means an examination open to anyone
whether or not already employed in the
city who meets the qualifications
established for a given classification
or position basically what that meant
was entry-level examination for
entry-level positions there's only
and i'll put it in air quotes one
position that has any entry-level
examination and you don't even
administer it and it's police officers
with an ntn with the national testing
network so i don't think it hurts to
keep it in here because maybe someday
we go back to something but you know
you're going to look at these things and
say even after it's revised and say why
and it's a fair question but i don't
want to go overboard either that's what
i'm saying so let's say that we go
overboard with you know in precise room
let's go overboard do these definitions
exist in
uh
somewhere else in city documents
somewhere else like so this is not this
is not they're not being duplicated here
anyway
probably not
maybe a few minor exceptions but yeah
they're not so just someplace else okay
again i don't think anything's a real
big
issue but you know do you need do you
need the definition of pay period in the
civil service rules probably not but
it doesn't hurt
because
alan says it's the period of time during
which the the payroll is accumulated as
determined by the appointing authority i
mean
that that's not a civil service thing
but i think we should take that yeah
i i think that the longer something gets
the more unhelpful it can be especially
if it's not offering relevant
information
um
on the same page
promotion means the active placement
employee and the position of
classification
we have frequently seen when they are
changing departments
and getting a higher salary is that a
promotion
and
leave sewer and
go to street maintenance
cleaning this up to remove things that
are not going to be helpful to someone
else or anyone else when you see
anything in there i agree with it
i mean some of these things
plain meaning right right
i mean i think as i'm going through this
again reminding
being reminded of what we've done or
what i've started to do we started to do
is
those definitions are going to be down
to maybe two to three pages and they
should be that way
right so temporary appointment
did get beat up yeah and that's language
from the ohio revised code actually that
i added to this definition
so really i mean there's a definition
and it's fine we have it there but you
know we can't deviate from the revised
code
unless instead of the charter
most people don't know
i don't know the sections that mark's
referring to well why would you i deal
with it all the time so
i don't know a lot of the the more i the
more i know about what i do the more i
realize there's a punishment
this reminds me so chapter three i think
we're in agreement goes away
right
yes because there's no
you'd never do this
we never can do it or we never
allowed you never can do it so we don't
it's not even an option for us like if
we
decided to get very like you know uh
power hungry guys and then we decided we
needed to do it could we do it
yes if you basically
required this
if you would basically again this is
going to be a more long-winded answer
than you want but okay we're getting our
money you would have you would have to
create a classification plan for the
city
and somehow convince the city to adopt
that classification plan you would then
have to have job descriptions that are
reflective of that classification plan
so if i have an e again i'm using
bargaining into positions which wouldn't
even apply
so that means it's even fewer things if
i have a rec department assistant one
and a rec department assistant too
then the rec department assistant one
comes would have to have some specific
defined job duties that don't
completely overlap overlap with the two
she he or she would come to you and say
hey they're making me do two two's job
duties i want to be paid like the two
that's the scenario under which you
could do this
again like i said before the only time
i've ever seen this happen is on the
state and county level and they don't
even do it anymore
that was probably
not probably it was late 80s early 90s
when their last dealt with that but
these are all handled by negotiating
agreement
almost all of them that's right and the
other ones are you know more realistic
of what goes on in most with most
employers you don't like what i'm
assigning you
go tell someone who cares i mean you'd
be more polite than that but you don't
get to appeal the fact that i'm making
you do six male runs a week instead of
two or whatever is really this is not an
audit in the traditional sense of a
financial audit this is an audit of
whether or not the job description is
being adhered to an applied credit
exactly okay yeah then i agree
if we don't have any it's hard to
imagine a scenario any scenario exactly
the curve so
um okay that sounds good
chapter four
so
so the the interesting thing is here you
could still hear appeals there are
limited classified civil service
employees who if they are if you look at
42a
if if the city decides to
demote them
involuntarily disability separate them
abolish their job lay them off
um why put the word demotion in there
specifically suspend them or fire them
for cause so for classified employees it
could come to you
um
that would not be for just cars
i would love to but i just got a call
from a daughter who is
distressed after a tryout for a theater
i gotta go figure out the school
before can can someone just hit the end
button and close my laptop whenever this
is done yeah do they know how to start
it then yeah they have their own thing
oh okay yeah yes we thank you sorry guys
whatever works for you works for me
why don't we do that since we're if
that's okay john i think that's good it
is it's 5 24 we want to be respectful
yes
mark you need a certain
now and are we looking at a quarter or
are we looking at trying to find some
day to get together and keep plowing
through this
the latter
i agree that's fine
you tell me what you're looking at and
i'll tell you if i'm available
i'm the only one here
[Music]
i
barely meet
again that correct
so um
something in february or march i mean i
would envision only
were you thinking monthly meetings or
were you thinking
that works for me i i think my fully
makes sense but i don't care
do we have a goal to finish this
should be establishable
then we have to adhere to it
um
well
it's hard to
establish
[Music]
well my hearings are usually in the
morning so in that respect it gets a
longer hearing and i don't i don't
really want to start a crack
um i feel like you've mentioned it
so i think i could do this i mean as
long as we're not going to be um holding
you late park if it's a 4 to 5 30.
that's fine
i love the idea of driving
from my office or wherever i am to vex
slate by 4 o'clock instead of six
o'clock
on the corner
so um
what about if we thought about like
january 16th
we're gonna do it periodically like on
oh my god i can't wait till that happens
for me
i have one it's just oh i believe you
it's nice to not have to have it
and can we just go ahead and schedule
march 2. oh sure we'll need to avoid
becca's spring break i would imagine
after the mayor
and everybody except me so what is
spices
um it would be wednesday the 16th it
would cover that
on march march
works
and that's
that's april six i'm sorry april what is
it the first wednesday
second okay then the 13th thursday
um do you like the idea of holding the
meetings to
an hour and a half
i think that's fine i think if we made
similar progress like we did today and i
know this is faster because you've
already done it
it won't be that bad
we've got less than two minutes
is there anything else you want
so we're scheduled to eat
oh my goodness thank you guys
yeah