e
it's three to I mean he usually does
ours on
Fridays Thursday dedicated to
intel four
weeks always he's always always
I think I have everything on that needs
to be project up that way believe
so yeah he's
good yeah he was
really questions have answer
today how does that all right hopefully
that works um hi everyone
chair person chair well today you're the
chair Vice chair acting chair
person follows Mee order great um I will
call the role please call the RO
um with your last namea penosa sorry
about that Miss penosa here Mr hire here
Mr Scott here Mr Hall here okay um
Suzanne is the one who actually called
this meeting and she cannot be here I'm
hoping that they can watch it on zoom
and Stephen Calhoun has he is not
feeling well and tested positive for
covid so he is also not here and
Courtney is out of
town um so I'm gonna hand it over to our
vice chair who's a sitting chair and
I'll help along the way and so we'll
Katherine and I um the the questions
that I had that were put in front of us
to I'm just going to say this in in
front Katherine add to it if you need to
a lot of the questions and concerns that
were brought to my attention for this
meeting are specific to a project that
is still under review we cannot discuss
that this meeting has been publicly
noticed but it has not been like noticed
for the 200 feet around any project on
any agenda I just want to be clear
because if we stray into specific
project questions we will end it really
quickly procedurally though and that's I
feel it's kind of cleaned right the
questions that were issued yes print
agenda so I'll just say try to be as
vague as possible but there is
procedural things that we can discuss
correct in other
cases so Pete has those on a sheet that
have cleaned up questions that were too
specific but are now very nicely
rewarded um and I put together with
Katherine on a phone call this morning a
very broad agenda so we can at least um
you know have an outline to go through
and touchline a couple other things too
that also are you know like rules and rs
yeah when we post that let's make sure
we do the when we get the dots out
online we get this agenda too yes I just
packet everything last minute that's
cool um okay okay I think uh before we
get into item three which we really get
into more specifics
of code and our procedur review with the
board members that have been part of the
process the last couple of
months
Mr Paul to kind of just go through these
first seven items uh and and have these
as discussion points for today again not
getting detail on specific case really
kind of question how we got to where we
were question procedures moving forward
on certain on
specific U situations that we that arise
when we're sitting and and voting and
how we need to the lanes that we need to
stand as a board the rules that we need
to follow and what our options are
moving forward on certain situations
that so in that let's
just go to our first question that came
in and this was kind of couple questions
were being sent to Karen they were
compiled kind of cleaned up to make sure
they were very generic General case
specific uh the first one was really uh
related to the process and relationship
between ARB
arv has been given full jurisdiction for
demolition reviews is our pry I guess
is uh but in that process
my wrong word uh you know it's it's it's
it's I question the whole process
because we've had since I've been here
over five years now many cases that have
come through um only a few if any only
one maybe that potentially might have
been a denied but then it you know the
process gets appealed which is part of
the process goes to a higher
jurisdiction which is B out for us uh
and may or may not be return um that
brings up a lot of questions of well
what is our real te that we have what is
the real uh how do we how do we navigate
moving forward so that we as a board can
communicate clearly to any appeal
process our position
and why we're voting a certain way and I
know there's vehicles for that now one
is car of course the report from staff
one is the minutes and videos that can
watched but I'm not sure that may be
enough or when uh new evidence also part
of this number one item here is
presented that we did not see in a
specific case that might be brought to
before the be might be related to
them is that something that we as a
board since it's supposed to be under
our jurisdiction when new things are
these are things that need to come back
to be reviewed back by us I know that's
not in the procedures but now they're
allowed to bring new evidence to be
because they being it's being appealed
in the case but I'm going to let you
talk about it so that's really kind of
sums up this item number one it's really
this you know a little bit of the
frustration of the time and investment
we put in on the board through the caves
uh we have very rarely said no to a
demolition uh and we fight for them and
we fight think right cause of keeping
properties that we feel are significant
and when that's you know there didn't
seem to be a ton of challenges sometimes
on a specific or not the process one
month later things can be approved or
not and all that effort we put into is
wasted which then tells me it's a waste
of
time why not just go why just straight
why is demolition coming through this so
I'll stop rambling on please other board
members add before we get too detailed
into so the way this set up is you will
pose the question and then the City
attorney will the these are questions
that have come from me and uh Suzanne
and I don't know if any other things
were addressed by anybody else no so
this is really board bringing questions
to this meeting to start this
conversation more in depth so that we
can then I think plan a course of action
for this board moving forward
things that we want to see things that
we want to do potentially working with
council with with City on on ways to
improve the system to better you know
support the process that we currently
have is the idea right so and I think
it's there's there's a lot of lot in
here that we can discuss I think this
we've seen we've been frustrated on many
different aspects of how most
frustrating for all the board members is
when we're in in an actual hearing orb
meeting and we're un clear what we're
doing meaning we we can review the thing
but we don't know the process and we
have to backrack we have to have
Consulting coming in or and I think to
applicants that's confusing it's unfair
there's always a situation that may be
belongs to that but there's been and
we've paused for an hour or more talking
about procedure and how we should be
Ming forward I think that's that needs
to be remed on our side in more training
and more understanding of where Lanes
we're in what's the proper procedure I
think we have since I've been here for
five years uh especially the demo or
there's a chart there's a graph there's
there's things that clarify that but
even that I have tend to get off rails
and go too far too quickly and you know
just understanding that procedure so
that we all can work together to get
through that process so we have well I
guess just for clarity and moving
through this in the time that we have is
it possible to just have some of these
uh like yes know or this is this is true
this is not from these questions so my
my the first question for me is you know
is beap allowed to on an appeal case uh
are they allowed to see new evidence
that we didn't
see yes and can they have new uh
testimony that we didn't hear yes okay
so that was not clear to us has not been
clear to us um you've never had an
appeal to them before to my
I don't believe we ever had there's
never been an appeal from without
talking about a specific case you
know uh that was not we were I I was not
aware of that I thought that that an
appeal went to beap with whatever was
presented to ARB and that was
it yeah
I I don't know why you thought that
that's true if it goes to C from beap to
council that's true I see it's not true
for other is that written somewhere
uh it is it is a it is a general appeal
right in the code it would be a high
rice code section 2506 so when we're
writing because we need to write out
procedures for ARB the mayor has
encouraged us to write out our own you
know basically our own guideline sets
for this we need to make these things
clear because none of us understand that
um and maybe it's because we didn't
memorize the code well and we haven't
dealt with this specific topic could you
I'm sorry I I just want to understand is
it because it's a higher court that
they're allowed to see it's a higher
administrative board okay so if you get
if we get back to the procedures and I
tell you the code Provisions which I
know is not what you want to hear it
will put a lot of this in better Clarity
I think and Karen can put that back up
there if you want to see the code
sections but I can tell you the way it
works and it's been gar out lays it out
in the beginning of the staff report
every time about what the choices are
and when you can table and when you
can't and frankly the city amended the
code uh as it relates to this board in I
if you sure me 20
12237
2020
12237 right there yeah no it was
originally amended in yeah maybe 20 I
think there was an amendment before that
the 16 amendment no 16 was one was
passed so
what what council did when they adopted
the code as it relates to ARB was two
things and this is this has been true in
the way that the code has been applied
but there was an amendment as it relates
to the the schedule and when you can
table them when you can't in any case in
which there is a conditional user a
variant
sought and often requires a certificate
of appropriateness in addition to the
conditional user variant
the jurisdiction to decide all three of
those things is in
Bap but Bap wants the recommendation of
ARB when it comes to architecture they
do not perceive themselves as experts in
that field they don't want to be experts
in that field so if they are the
ultimate decision maker on the
certificate of appropriateness and
that's because there's a variance or a
conditional use also because that is
their Juris ition then it comes to to
ARB first and then ARB hears it and it
is it is intentionally scheduled on the
city's docket to come to ARB and two
weeks later go to Bap and in those cases
where they are the final decision maker
in a case ARB does not have the ability
to table that unless the applicant
requests it and the reason for that is
because if they're not going to get a
condition user variance the architecture
doesn't matter I mean that they need
that in order to do what they're asking
to do so um I think there was early on
in the process there ARB historically
was able to table those and that's that
was if you look at 09 you can see when
that was admitted why is that a table
and not a continuance it is um because
the decision is theirs there's no
continuance the decision is baps Bap
issues the certificate of
appropriateness Bap issues a conditional
use Bap issues the variance it is their
jurisdiction that's the way the code's
written but if it's if it's a
recommendation to Bap and the applicant
um requests a table you can table it why
couldn't they request a continuance
because it's not in our jurisdiction a
continuance wouldn't be in our
jurisdiction request table they request
you in table they come back the next Mee
to you right I I'm trying to clarify the
difference between a continuance and a
table uh you can call it it it is when
it's remaining in A or B it's it's
either one synonymous okay I mean that
there's no difference in that word I
mean I wasn't aware of that I thought I
thought one was two dates and one if you
continue you can table it to the next
meeting what what staff usually requests
is that you state whether you table it
or whether it's continued um typically
you table it to the next meeting so they
don't have to react advertise if you can
continue it to a date certain they also
don't have to read advertise typically
that wouldn't be the next meeting maybe
it's two meetings away um or you can
table it to that meeting what they
typically don't want is it to have an
indefinite table uh because that's you
have to bring it back within a certain
amount of time but if you do that then
when it when you decide to bring it back
you have to decide at a meeting to bring
it back they have to read advertise if
it doesn't come back till the next
meeting so the request is for a date
certain just for those reasons for those
procedural reasons but whether you call
it a table or a continuance it doesn't
matter but in the code sections
themselves when you look at the meetings
and hearings and procedures in 12237 C
it specifically tells you go up to there
right there C an application requiring a
recommendation by ARB this is a this is
means it's bap's jurisdiction right not
demo not demo a
recommendation um to Bap may only be
tabled at the request of an applicant
otherwise ARB shall make a
recommendation to beap for approval
approval of modifications or conditions
disapproval or remand back to the ARB
board that's laid out in front of Karen
staff report every time she she has all
of those choices in the front of her
staff report I don't think we have any
question about that we so
remman REM done that a lot lately when
you send it to to beap but you say we
were our our review is not we want the
architecture to come back to us and I
know that we've done that many so that's
no he can override that they can yeah
but they've never done over they can't
yes because the jurisdiction is there
because you're a recommender yes for Bap
under that recommendation they are only
a recommend they are a recommender to
Council of several things of a rezoning
of changes in the zoning code all of
that same thing for them they could say
we want it to come back to us but it's
really it's only a recommendation so our
recommendation that they come back to us
it's our recation for approval not
anything the last be up agenda and I
think I can say the case because it's
closed right yes um is we had exactly
that that that um but I'm just saying
last month we like and it worked exactly
like we wanted it to because they
actually got turned down declined for
that garden structure that we didn't
even know what to make of it we wanted
to make sure it had zoning first so
that's what we did sent it with no
recommendation with the condition that
it I guess it's not a
condition back and it would have been
sent
back yes that is that so that is when
when you are not the final decision
maker that's what you do I get that um
and beap can choose to do to your point
Bap can choose to send it back they can
choose not to they can they typically
and Karen would know better about this
typically they they retain jurisdiction
to actually issue the certificate of
appropriateness you don't issue it
although they could remand it back to
you to issue typically they retain
jurisdiction to do that so it's tied to
that variance or conditions or whatever
it is um which is why they take two
votes right they take an ISS that's why
we separate out the facts and findings
right they get the variance and then
they they do the CER appropriate
separate in case they say yes to the
variance but we're going to man back the
certificate appr to you they always vote
separately on that and then you if you
say yes we recommended certificate of
appropri of blah blah blah blah blah
typically that goes back to Bap and it's
just an administrative approval of what
you did um they could say and you can
recommend the certificate of
appropriateness from a PR practical
perspective when they do that sometimes
they get separated from each other and a
lot of times you want that certificate
of appropriateness tied to the variance
because it is a special circumstance and
people look at historically what people
have done and not and it's just easier
for staff and everybody to keep that all
together um because they're just the way
that they're labeled and numbered are a
little different so that that's what
happens in when you are a recommending
Authority and it's only when Bap has the
original jurisdiction when they have
original jurisdiction they have the
whole BX the reason that the meetings
are set up the way they are you they
come to you applications come to you
first then with your recommendation at
the first meeting to be up but if you
say to be up we need to see it again it
goes to be up they agree whatever and
you see it again you have it back in two
weeks so it's designed to allow a role
to accommodate applicants in a you know
in a quick way um and
because it's only a recommendation
that's why you don't have the tabling
authority in that case when it comes
back to you for another recommendation
same rules are going to apply but
typically applicants at that point in
time
stay you know because they it's it's in
their interest to stay and have you
determine that um and not go to Bap
because Bap would really rather have
your recommendation than than being out
of that so that's that's the way that it
works and the reason I say that you look
at the code is because in two sections
later is the different code in short if
it's a bz app-
24-23 you're not the final Authority if
it's an ARB you
are that's the that's a short of it yeah
so if you go down to um uh 09
certificate of
appropriateness um in that one 09c is
saying the bo the ARB A or B shall
review and approve approve with
modifications or conditions or
disapprove each such application an
application may be tabled at the request
of the applicant or the board when the
board is making the determinate the
final determination on the application
City shall maintain an official record
of the board's decision on the
application minutes of the meeting so if
you are the final decision maker on a
demolition on an ARB that doesn't have a
conditional use or a VAR
in a residential neighborhood not Main
Street because you're on jurisdiction
over that then you have total control
you you run your own proceedings we
don't care about bab we going to Bab an
applicant can request table or not table
and you can choose to table it on your
own that also beginning of the staff
report all of them say that so um for
and and that was ALS that was one of the
original with a certificate
appropriateness when the when the code
was amended in 20 that's why it was
amended to say hey if it's your
application you do you table it run it
whatever you want to do but if you're
only the recommending Authority you
can't hold it up to get it
pass yeah that's right yeah it does but
maybe I'm looking into this too far
these but does if it if somebody comes
to e app because they need a conditional
use or
arist um and they're looking for us to
make a recommendation but we don't make
the re we don't recommend it it goes to
these app they can go ahead and approve
it right whether they like the
architecture or not they well they as
Matt was saying they have two approvals
they approve the variance Andor
conditional use Andor both but they also
approve the certificate appropriateness
if you disapprove it they could approve
it over your disapproval or more likely
that part of the application for the
certificate appropriateness they would
reand back to
you that's why as Matt was saying they
they they issue two things two
decisions I say so when it comes back to
us they still hold the final say they do
so they always do it comes back no
matter what but we have option of making
a recommendation so we already said no
when it comes back to us but you're only
saying no to architecture when it comes
to conditional use of variance you
cannot make
recommendations but our recommendation
was already issued on the design let's
say we do not recommend we said no yeah
so it goes to be as a non-recommended
design they say we approve the concept
but the design has to come back to us
when it comes back to us well they're
not approving the necessarily the well
the variance whatever
they nothing to do
with prove the variance yeah but the
design is approved comes back to us but
we've already said no to the sign if we
you haven't said no we said no to the
recommendation right said we can not
recommends so when it comes back to us
then at that point we can say well no
you didn't say no to a recommendation
because it wasn't a recommendation it
was just to flat out the applicant it
was an ARB application he's talking
about
General
talking
applic you don't the certificate not in
the certificate gets free put back to us
we already said no there's no design
changes again so we re review it or as
the board do we say you need to change
it before back to us we said if we can't
do ANB only and we said no we vote all
said no and the project gets kicked out
and they have to reapply with changes
right they can't just resit the same
design usually it's table yeah I mean I
don't even remember that ever happening
well it did me it well they did not
change it but I mean it happened on 2200
he's M they said no you said no to the
recommendation they said okay but we got
to get our variances we got to work
architecture right and then it came back
and like but they brought changes
immediately yeah right
right think it's ever happened that no
changes were made it did it would
probably sit there on your table until
Chang I guess that's staff is very you
know I I don't let people come back if
they didn't do Chang my point is if it
was be only we said no we voted no on
the the sign right I know it's different
but we said no they have to be be done
right they have to come back with the
new application new application new with
the new design correct but when it goes
to ARB or
DCA we don't recommend it it's a
recommendation they approve the variance
design comes back to
us do we accept it with no changes or do
we say it has to change with back is my
real question well it comes back to you
you tell the applicant what you have to
do yeah and if they ask for vote we see
rejected think dead they appeal the
certificate of
goes
back
decision it'll still go back to be up
they can
appeal yeah that's right
fine if if we don't like the ders in the
owner doesn't you know is absolutely you
know wants to do the dorm a Rel is a
hypothetical example yes so gets
frustrated with us goes to be app says I
want to do these Dormers be app can sit
there and say yeah I agree with you go
go build your ders so we evidence to say
they could yeah so we just need to
understand that that's our you know
that's our process I just wor the issue
is it's very different I think for this
board I'd be interested in the
discussion of before after these app the
variances hypothetical case and the
design was came back to us that
procedurally we would request before it
came back to us that the design was
updated maybe that's it but when it
comes to here's my experience and
Karen's is certainly broader than mine
but my experience is when the design
comes to you in the first instance if
you don't like it you're telling the
applicant at that time why I what needs
to change and what needs to happen and
and you're recommending against it and
you may say to beap specifically what it
is that you don't like about sure we
should and then it goes up to Bap if
beap remands it back to you the
applicant already knows what you're
unhappy about I mean it's not news to
them right I know but for for again this
is getting a little bit into the but as
procedurally we've already kind of said
we don't proove sign can't recommend it
we didn't vote no under the design we
said no we can't recommend it we said no
comes back to us with no changes and
then we have to here it
again I would look to procedurally for
us that the design updates would have to
be considered before back my only you
change is maybe considered by who
the if it comes back without any changes
I warned them up front you're going to
get turned down because we've already
told you and then you turn
down I mean let me tell you we have
implemented thank you not even here to
hear me say Matt thanks to Matt I mean I
have called every applicant for Thursday
you are you may have something in at
five o'clock today and you we are done
done not taking anything
else City really let me also say that
your rules and regulations govern when
they have to have it in to be consider
they already do I know and in fact at
the LA we talked about that at the last
meeting they said they came in at the
11th hour I said they don't have to
consider because it didn't come in in
enough time the board could choose not
to consider it want to correct me wrong
in fact I even said and they should be
here to testify about it so the board
can answer questions and the board chose
not to to go ahead and hear it anyway
and to let them proceed without the
expert there my view is every time they
submit an expert report to you from a
legal perspective that expert ought to
be there to talk to you about it and
explain their decisions and findings but
historically at least what I heard at
that hearing is that's not what the
board has required which is within your
discretion not to do um so those are
those are things that that can be done
um and I think in I did bring the rules
which Karen did put on her note they
need update it because the code was
amend they're from 2020 and the code was
amended in I have everything up here so
so
guess so so with that in mind
you so Catherine from a legal
perspective please yep um could they not
heard it at all because new or could
they have just kicked out the testimony
or the evidence that was submitted
within the last week because technically
our code I believe says four weeks
anything submitted four
weeks it has to the application has to
be submitted four weeks prior to the
meeting right and we don't you don't
have the obligation now we're generous
with most residents I've taken the
stance of like two everything has to be
in two weeks right and
then what the rules say is and this
ordinance is silent on this what the
rules what your rules say is same thing
application four weeks it mirrors the
code there's also a provision the rules
that say if if there's any in the case
of modifications to tabled applications
modifications shall be submitted at
least two weeks prior to the next
regular meeting
and I think there there's also a
provision that says any new information
has to be submitted two weeks before I
think we staff treats at us you have to
have it in two weeks before the meeting
or we're not going to consider it no
that's what I was start two yeah now we
we are now doing one week we're days the
reality is I do my final
post our
biggest well we have right I mean I just
think as long as it's like the Friday
before I think if applicants know that
clearly that's one thing because I
remember at the the hearings on
2200 um just as an example the developer
was leaning stuff in really to you um on
short notice manying brought and they're
bringing you know things in for the
first time then and a lot of members of
the public complained about that and the
board chose to hear it and said this is
our routine there are always all these
changes and we go ahead and listen to
them but you can as a board choose not
to do that in your discretion you can or
you don't have to because it's your
rules historically the board has done
that but if you choose not to you know
and in your rule amendments we can put
that just make it a hard fast Rule and
there are a lot of jurisdictions that I
practice in where if you're you're you
know after they have a cut off at noon a
certain day and if you're five minutes
late they're not taking it okay but
that's not the wayy likes to do things
City yeah so if you're saying it's not D
that someone bring something like as a
board whoever's chairing them that we
will not accept this because itn't and
it won't be a surprise anymore at least
for the first probably six months to a
year I'm going to call everybody and
make sure they know Friday because I
want it to be out there that this is
just you know I don't want anybody well
and when you get it we have made we've
bent over backwards on purpose under the
leadership at the highest levels to take
anything anytime because we're we pride
ourselves on being user friendly we've
been burnt too many times we're not
doing it
anymore it is
so process I've told all my staff
members I've told everyone that I'm
working with make me the bad guy okay if
you see a resident you're like why
aren't you hear at call mler call call
the office I'll be the bad guy and if
they want to go above my head then he
can work that out with them but if you
make me the bad guy I'll listen to
everyone's s stories and and the things
and so clear and commun clear the city
appli right but you guys are going to
you guys I'm sure will hear it I'm sure
you'll hear it at some point and just
say if you have a problem call that
that's fine um I do want to go with B
can you go to
12 sorry I I'm not trying to hijack but
12309
12239
B and this is where I was thinking you
know if there was new stuff that you got
it says within
however the second however that the ARB
May for good cause wave the four-week
advance filing
requirement but they all applications
requiring review shall be made to the
board at least four weeks so talking
about the initial filing of the
application yeah so then this
hypothetical one that we may or may not
that they may not may have just heard
like if they had knew they did file it
within four weeks but if they had new
evidence evidence with a week to go is
is it in the board's purview to say
sorry we're kicking you to the next
month's meeting that's why I was saying
there but it's the board was saying yeah
it's not a table but modifications
typically we would say two weeks you
can't submit a modification and expect
the board to hear it you know greater
than two weeks before the less than two
weeks before and that's a staff Call
that's not necessarily a code well it's
in the board
roles so when you Karen has on her notes
of things to look at board rules and so
you it can also be published in the
board rules
because lawyers and people like me who
are used to going to lots of different
boards and lots of different places one
of the first things we go find is the
board rules there are some boards that
will say we're not going to start
hearing an application after 11 o'clock
and think your rules say that now um
because during Co we were on the phone
till 2 3 in the morning a couple times
which not super fun but um the board
some boards have a rule and says if you
I don't care if you're on the agenda if
it's you know after 10 o'clock we're not
hearing anything new or 11 o'clock and I
know Bap has that rule I don't remember
if Al does but those are things that you
can put into your rules and I and one of
the things I would suggest um Matt and
Karen is sometimes those rules are hard
to find on the web but maybe if you do
maybe if you put a link on like the AR B
like the boards and commission site when
you go to the ARB page and it lists all
the members you can put a hot link there
about the rules of the board that way
people can easily find I've had lawyers
call me to say I can't find the like
there but
i7 it's hard to find I got to get
through budget season of my friend
counting right now get and my next goal
is the website so that that's there my
next goal is our website it's a long
game thing one is to get the rules
updated two is to get them posted where
they can easily be found because it also
then bolsters staff and the director
when they're saying no our rules say
this we don't need you don't need an
ordinance Amendment for that you adopt
rules you say this is what we're doing
and what you need is you know the
director and staff to enforce it there
may be exceptions and that's this the
sort of the exception to the four-week
rule was what if somebody's you know the
de day late and we've got room on the
agenda sometimes we're better off to get
it on the agenda than wait for the next
crazy agenda after it gives the board
staff some authority to make have a
little bit of discretion you can do the
same thing about a twoe Ru or one we Ru
choose but some always should be a
little flexible yes we don't problem is
when it's 100% flexible we're getting
designs printed and brought to the
meetings to look at to well we're not
doing that anymore no I know so I say
that's they don't they just bring stuff
like here I've got new well and from my
perspective as a as a board member and
I've been to lots of board I've been a
board member in lots of different boards
I want to have my materials at least the
weekend before my meeting because wait
it's the time when you have to take a
minute out of your busy schedule and and
focus and I need to hear from Alie that
that is good because in our rules and
regs it says at least two weeks before
the next meeting but my inclination like
I'm working with right now something on
your agenda for I mean whatever bely
that I it's a tiny project that I'm
working with the homeowner and I'm I
like being able to work with them up
till the Friday before the meeting but
not going to work with them up until the
meeting anymore what would be helpful is
because especially you're getting things
uploaded really early right it's been
uploaded since for four weeks before
yeah that's great but if I look at
things early send comments and then
things are continuing please continue to
communicate oh I have been doing that
and just just make sure hey there's
small changes this has been Y what I
will always do is still send you that
Friday email that I always send to
confirm attendance and I'll give you the
link to the late to the website again
even though you can just go there but
I'll give you the link again and say
this is the final yeah no I know you do
and I will always include it but um but
just know that like it's not going to
feel that much different for you you
just have to know that you can go on
there um when it four weeks before
because we're going to post it I started
looking through it it's great because
now you can familiarize with and you'll
also see huge differences from people
I've worked with you know between then
and this and the week before but the
week before email that you get on
usually Fridays at 5:30 or 6 Whatever
Whenever I finished it all up it's not
going to feel any different it's just
going to be that's it
and I wanted that because I just
remember as a contractor like when I
knew the plans way ahead of time and
then a small addendum comes in as you
guys love to put out your bulletins in
your denims you Architects um at least
stop changing I I could at least I could
at least like narrow down the change
like if it came in you know last second
like okay I know right where I'm going
but if you have the whole picture in
your mind early like three weeks ahead
of time and then something comes in
you're like oh okay this is the I've
already reviewed this and that you can
see a change quicker when at least for
me that's that's the way I work
challenges with Rie times I know I'm
traveling then I'm not to anything and
then it's like it's not fair to the not
reviewing these things so it's just yeah
I love where you guys are going I think
is a week before okay with
everybody yes yeah I two weeks but I
feel
like it just limits my opportunity to
work with people the reality is is that
we're also busy busy that we're not
going to be finding time to review this
stuff two weeks in
advance forget but looked at the reality
is is we're going to set aside time
wherever we can fit it in at the last
minute before we come because we're just
so busy in our private practicing mindo
yeah I mean whenever you look at it you
look at it but I just want to make sure
you're okay with the week
before I'm G try back
some yeah so when application comes back
to us so they aesome either a demolition
or a variance gets approved comes back
to us back through the arv what is that
fall then the review of that design fall
under solely our jurisdiction and we
have the right to table or is it only
the applicant can still table that
because it's a BAP application no it's
not a BAP application at that point it's
not back when they remand it back to you
they it is your application they just
made decision
on I mean your decision was and let me
back up when you say communicate the
decision there were findings and facts
and conclusions of law in detail in
segmented Parts as you might remember
well we're gonna say this first we're
going to talk about this first we're
going to talk about this first so that
you could parse out and they could
understand your reasoning so when it
goes up to them they have that along
with they listen they get an an entire
record they get a whole thing of the
application all the exhibits everything
they get the whole package and they also
get links to the video and they watch
your ear so when they go up to them it's
not they're not listening to it in a
vacuum it's their obligation to do a
complete review of what you did and then
they listen to any additional evidence
that's presented and then they um
deliberate and and decide so when it
when it comes back to you they don't
have jurisdiction certificate
appropriateness because it's there's no
variance or conditional use attached to
that that's your
jurisdiction appealed the issue of
demolition to you because you didn't
issue a certificate of appropriateness
because you denied the demolition so
they appealed the certificate of
appropriateness they overturn that the
decision on the demolition saying no a
certificate of appropriateness should be
issued but that's not our jurisdiction
it comes back to you now it's still your
application
have an application under fully
jurisdiction yes right and in fact when
you you never actually considered I mean
I know there were presentations on it
but in a decision-making role you never
actually considered a new design because
you never had to get there because you
denied the demolition so the new design
technically wasn't a merits decision for
board so you get it remanded back to you
it's still wholly within your
jurisdiction it is not in Visa
it's not as a have the right to table it
because
it's question and that's if the B app
REM remains it back to them right so
they first right or refusal essentially
they could also just do a certificate of
appropriateness they could have the
first time right but they're giving up
their they're giving up their right they
first right of refusal right if it comes
if you guys say no first and then they
it goes to them and they say yes to the
variants no to St appropriateness then
they could remand it back to you they're
giving up that uh authority to Grant
certific appri well no not in this case
because and the reason is because they
the certificate of appropriateness I
guess yes because you have to get a
certificate of appropriateness in order
to
demolish and they didn't get one for
that
so they they deny they reverse that
decision but the decision because it's
in residential district the the house is
in a residential district the exclusive
authority of the architecture on a
residential structure in a residential
district is a or b if there's no
conditional user variance okay so what
they did was they turned they overturned
the the approval of the or the denial of
the Demolition and say no uh the
demolition should be approved given the
facts and evidence and the standards of
the code but the design is still
exclusively within the authority of ARB
because there's no variance there's no
conditional use not in the Main Street
District it's not in a commercial
District all of which would have vested
it in in Bap but since none of those
factors are present the only thing
present is it's a house in a residential
neighborhood exclusive Authority for
that is with
a so they remit it back and they go when
there when
it's comes in in
uh the applicant is called for a vote
can table that to request additional
outside engineering we have we have the
right to take take demos under our
jurisdiction yes we can voting on that
it's not part ofap
recommendation yeah as long as there's
no VAR or conditional and that's a
procedure that we've already put in
place that we can we have resources
allocated so the board says we'd like to
hire structural assessment the city the
city hire there there is a provision in
the code that allows staff that allows
you to request
it
allows yes that's good enough we need to
call which is why we don't want to
change I'm sorry and other expert
Witnesses it's not just an engineer we
could call in other expert Witnesses
yeah any any historic preservation
consult that would be helpful in I think
the co is something like that's helpful
in making your determination there's
some standard but it's
not a high bar no that's great I read it
it reminded me to make sure you yes and
this does not to me this also applies to
like roof replacement so a slate roof
replacement sure we can we should be
able to table that so that we can call
in another expert witness that the city
can hire to assess the condition of the
Slate yeah yeah yeah slate roof
replacement I mean I think the shape
roof that's not AAP that's not a
conditioner variant that's your
Authority but it's a good it's a good
comparison because it's our Authority
just like a demo it's a much you know
narrower so the applicant comes with
Grandma and every and there's it's
leaking they got all these great photos
you know uh as an architect my question
always is is that the Slate's fault or
is that the flashing you know which
typically is something that gets
replaced every 15 20 years on any roof
um that puts up a flag for me that it
needs to be tabled so that we can have
another expert come in besides a local
asphalt roofing company who was there
representing the applicant independent
expert right which is a conflict of
interest to me unless they're just there
as a witness and not as the applicant
like the
contractor I know th this whole thing
about conflict of interest for who's
representing the applicant is another
meeting because it really is a problem I
think it's a problem I mentioned that in
another hearing that we had but um
anyway go ahead that was all I just make
sure the ability and I hear you on that
he understand what you're saying with a
demolition right with a demolition to
have the architect of the new design
actually representing the applicant they
benefit from the demo and they're
benefiting from the demo yeah that is a
conflict of
interest don't you right yeah yeah that
should be a big item have the City
attorney there for that
discussion uh moving on to number
four all demo come to ARB that's a
standard policy so this question is a
little I think the the thinking here is
you know they include a variance or any
sort of variance of the new designs that
I like be kicking these out I think the
challenge here the
overall position of the question
is why are we voting on D and church but
this is part of the process so it's I
mean I think it's happened twice that I
can
remember but it's but the more they know
about it the more potentially the first
meeting I'm G take it up and I'm
just I mean I I just want to say my
piece for this because I I I hear you
but I've been asked this a million times
and I think like we live we learn
anecdotally and now we we all are very
aware that we will just say no you're
going to be tabled until you bring us
this next information and we'll make it
clear I mean it's it's sus that we learn
it that way we can table we have sayy
we're going to table call there there is
no there is no body and cther this is
your area but there's no body of a quasi
judicial or otherwise in the city that
can't be appealed at some level no
happens all I'm okay with
that is ARB quasi judicial yes at for
specific kinds of decisions or all
decisions um I cannot think of a
decision where you're not okay
can we go into executive session if
we're quasi judicial so the it's not
actually there's a
distinction it's not actually executive
session it
is um when you are in a quasi judicial
proceeding where you know there's an
issue of standing do you have standing
do you not who's the applicant who can
talk in those
situations what the courts would say is
that is not a public
meeting subject to the sary law it is a
public hearing on in a quasi judicial
proceeding just like I go my example
would be I go to the court of appeals
there's oral arguments anybody can come
they can't talk they can just listen and
at that point in time the board adjourns
and privately discusses because it's not
a public meeting it's a court proceeding
was judicial is like a court proceeding
like when I go to the trial court and
I'm presenting evidence there are people
in the audience they don't get to speak
if they don't have standing lean the
other because we can't privately be
discussed
cases you can deliberate
decisions um not in
public oh we did not know that
is is this after after uncommon it is
very
un let's say there's a contentious not
here in Jefferson Township they happen
all the time let's say there's a
contentious project or whatever
and we need some time to think so you're
saying after it's been presented you can
just table it and think about it okay
yeah I mean you don't have to deliberate
to think about it that's many times I'm
sitting there that I went to ask an
opinion of one of these folks but it's
not I don't want to do it publicly you
know I want to go behind closed doors
and see where they are with this because
I just I value their
opinion
and that's never that's I'm afraid that
will happen all the
time kitchen the kit where we meet but I
was under the impression that you do
that you deliberate an executive session
only with the attorney to ask procedural
questions and discuss how to go for like
if you're
stuck like I'm not allowed to be in
those I'm am I you're not right you are
not unless she's invited in uh no so
you're saying it's it's a it's a private
deliberation versus an executive session
is that Sunshine Law with executive
sessions when I was on Council we could
invite if we announced we could invite
so and so to come in right we're
inviting cathern Cunningham to come in
to because it's a legislative proceeding
judicial proceeding that's the
difference if it's a legislative
proceeding you're subject to Sunshine
Law right and you in order to
deliberate in executive session you have
to qualify under the state statute for a
reason if you if when you go into
executive session in
Council Mark usually reads the reason
why we're going into executive session
to discover to discuss a real estate
contract we're going into executive
session to get advice of legal councel
on pending or threat and litigation
we're going into executive session to
discuss an employee matter we're going
into because state law would say when
you're a legislative body to go into
executive session you have to qualify to
do so you can't just choose to go into
executive session can't do it okay same
would apply for us so what for you this
the Sunshine Law applies to you too for
sure it applies to you but when you're
in a the difference is is which is hard
for people to understand when you are in
a quasi judicial proceeding like Bap is
when they're hearing an appeal for you
they're sitting in a quasi judicial
capacity when they deliberate they just
adjourn the meeting and go into private
deliberations because they're sitting as
judges they're not sitting as
legislators or recommenders or
considering Poli or anything like that
they're not doing that in public they're
going to go do they're going to go do
well the meeting is while it's adjourned
for minute and they come back
hypothetically there's a list of
applications for the evening and number
three the board chair announces that
we're going to go into private
deliberation the meeting is then
adjourned and there might be six
applications still left then the meeting
is re re and then the meeting is re
adjourned when we come back we could
move in there here talk here and go back
in there we probably ev's office or if
there's a bunch of people got
office it is very uncommon to do but you
can do it and you know triple the length
of your meetings
that's but if it was if it was tabled if
if I mean if it's a demo and we know
that we have full
jurisdiction and we want to deliberate
privately we can adjourn and then come
back and
continue for something that is as
contentious as uh a demolition what this
makes sense to me now because Council
when we had TC we had the TCB thing we
we did we adjourned and privately
deliberated so it wasn't executive
remember that when
we the TCB the Community Builders the
the application anything yeah yeah on
Livingston we arguing delting about
because it was
a yeah most half lawyers the
world I hear them say executive session
like no you're not because if you're
going into executive session you qualify
the statute and the court look at
just sorry guys this is a zoom recorded
meeting for the public and there's
multiple conversations so it's going to
be super hard no no no I'm just trying
to make sure that I'm not going to get
the calls and Matt's not gonna get calls
like they're meeting us yeah so
officially what so if we're we we
potentially can call
a private session you it's not the
executive session you call yes just you
just end the public meeting and
deliberate but you cannot have anybody
else other than legal counsel you can't
have anybody else in there because they
cannot influence your decision it's an
independent decision certain cases where
we there's at times there's times we're
all going back and forth where there's
definitely an open discussion about
parts of the
project it could be beneficial to the J
come into a private room have that
deliberation and discussion about it my
my sense is that we would do that
adjourning in you know extremely limited
conditions especially in my mind if we
have a contentious applicant yeah who is
continually interrupting us continually
walking up to the counter in our faces
or doing something I would I would
immediately call for a private
deliberation can any board call for that
the chair has the chair has to right
well think we need to be careful about
that because like the what you're saying
I mean and I I think that's the chair's
responsibility to get right under
control that's not a reason to call a I
mean this that's not a reason to call it
that's not a reason to call to
deliberate a great reason to call to
deliberate is when there's confusion
about the
procedure like we've had in past but I
don't think Mis I don't think
misbehavior of an applicant is in my
opinion not not a good reason I think
the Board shair needs to be very strong
and and and if we had to you'd call the
police but you know I don't think that's
well no I I guess what I'm saying is
that there there have been applications
where I I don't necessarily feel
threatened but I feel like I my my
ability to make a clear judgment you
know and and and make a vote has been um
has been
compromised uh and and I want to make
sure that my mind clearly understands
What's Happening Here uh because it's
it's just feels chaotic right that's
what I'm saying yeah you're confused to
question about procedure you'd like to
consult our attorney privately rather
than like that was just there were too
many okay
right hypothetically also table the
application right I mean because that
does for the applicant either they're
gonna settle down or you know they're
going to you delay them mon right I mean
are a lot of ways to manage a meeting
even if you know it it's getting sort of
feels like it's getting out of
control of course they got
yeah where this where I wanted to step
away and go behind the scenes and and
talk the fellow board
members that that's it all the other
times we've had complicated projects
come in perfectly fine there was you
know there's there's nothing there that
I could you know everybody had comments
to kind of push the thing along I
thought we were all lyed and so forth
but just you know in one case where you
know something came before us and it got
a little hairy on the edges it would
have been nice setep back take a
breather on it yeah and I would also say
when you are deliberating among
yourselves publicly it is beneficial to
applicants who may have to be amending
an application or trying to satisfy the
board more so I
think with architecture than for example
Bap they're looking at a conditional use
they're looking at a variance it's much
more they have objective standards in
the code that they run through that they
apply to the property when you do
architecture it's to me it's less
subjective it's more
subjective and that makes from my
perspective the need to deliberate it
seems to be a little bit less than when
you're applying specific standards to
specific facts um you're collaborating
among your fellow board members the
applicant is hearing what you're saying
about the project and what you know
people are thinking they can and can't
do maybe coming up with their own ideas
and there's a there's a to me a greater
value at arv to that and B that you know
you sound like they privately deliberate
a lot they never do the only time that
this is the first time they ever have on
an appeal it was the first appeal
they've ever had it's the first time
they ever did when an appeal comes up to
city council they also choose to
deliberate privately because they got a
big record to discuss that they don't
necessarily want to hear at a meeting
because they've got they want to talk
among themselves about the code
standards and what the board's doing
they're deliberating you know
differently than than you so I
generally just because of the nature of
an ARB board it it's very rare that we
see delour not you shouldn't do it ever
but it's very rare to see it for all of
those reasons so I would like to ask a
question about
um when something is appealed to Bap a
case is appealed to Bap that was our in
our full jurisdiction and Bap goes into
private deliberation comes out with you
know a a a a reason why they are
overriding the ARB decision and in that
decision there is a false
statement if that happens does ARB have
any appeal at all no so they can make
that decision based on false
information or make a false make a false
statement they they will make a decision
right and if then only people with
standing which is not a decision
decision maker just that's like saying
somebody appeals a trial judge in the
court of appeals and the court of
appeals says something the trial judge
says well no that wasn't right the trial
judge can't then take it to the Ohio
Supreme Court and say I don't like what
the court of appeals did to my decision
and you don't want that happen because
it's the parties who have standing right
the applicant anybody who appeared and
spoke at the hearing who had standing
those are the only people who when
you're a decision maker you are I mean
it's your responsibility to listen to
the evidence that comes before you and
to make a decision based on whatever
standards there are in a
code however that that you believe the
evidence supports that's before you not
to make a case for or against an
application that's not you're the
decision maker I mean if people went
into a trial court and the judge had a
propensity to view things a certain way
and just decided the way he wanted
regardless of what
happened that's not good staff
cannot well I'm M so she's not the
decision maker but she there's you know
evidence that was not brought to this
board that has now come to light we
can't appeal it I get that totally agree
with that but there's no prosecutor
let's say that's that's can say wait a
second we're GNA appeal that because
maybe prosecutors can't appeal I don't
know so
they there are
um I don't I don't know about internal
there the case law would say that
generally a city cannot no that's not
true
a Township or a county typically cannot
appeal the decision of its own board
however if a municipality has a charter
provision or a stat an ordinance that
says they can they could typically they
would not and in this case it would be
an appeal to city council and I don't
think anybody would do it but normally
it's only the the parties who appeared
and who have standing that's what
standing is all
about but then where's the city standing
it's only one applicant standing there's
no other there's no other sign it's just
the the approval the people giving
decisions right so there is no counter
applicant well there's the applicant has
all the all all the cars and there's no
counter appeal
process unless there was something
negligent maybe the PAB could return
something well if somebody appeared and
opposed and presented opposing evidence
that person would have standing assuming
they had standing to appeal in addition
to that
you have to decide whether they meet in
your opinion whether they meet code or
not which you did based on the evidence
before you at least in the demolition
case um it's just that when on
appeal when another board considered it
they didn't see it the
said so and I respect that but that
takes me back to my question and again
hypothetically if bat makes a statement
that says the reason why we're
overturning this decision by the ARB is
because they said said this color was
blue but in reality if you go back to
the hearing and listen to the recording
it's we said the color is
red is that a
legitimate overturn that's a legitimate
overturn legitimate over even though
they said that you know something that
we didn't say courts do that all the
time wow that's the world I live
in okay all right thank you thank you
that's important information really
yeah so so here's a question uh we uh
hypothetical case we don't approve a a
demolition if we were going to approve a
demolition part of the demolition
approval is based on the appropr of the
new design right a demo no no not
necessary to to me no the demolition the
demolition statute has its own standards
it does and you either meet those
standards or you don't but if you're
going to demolish you can't get a
demolition
permit until you have an approved design
which becomes which is still our full
jurisdiction as ARB it's a certificate
we can table we can do continu to a date
certain we can make kind of typical
requests that's what that's something
that hav approved it's not they didn't
approve the demo they approve the
certificate appr the permit won't be
issued until the building demild until
right they cannot get a demo from but
could
okay fast forward
yes
um if it becomes an ARB applic well it's
still a BAP application for no it's a
remand to their application so it's
their original they don't approve okay
on a
demolition in a case yes Bap said yes
you can demolish now get demolition
permit they're not presenting a design
that is appropriate for the demolition
they can't get a demolition permit under
your code unless they have a an approved
design replacement design under the
building right let's say they don't get
let's say they don't get an approved I
think you know this say they don't get
an approved design by ARB right can they
appeal to Bea for that
was because let me let me sort of to put
it in
context and you know what Demolition and
Zoning are the exercise of the police
power of a local government that's what
they are um but a property owner has
constitutional property rights which is
sort of the rub that always comes in
this so they have the right to use their
property in a certain way you've got a
property owner who has at at least at
this point in time in the city of Bexley
the right to demolish an existing
structure on a use property that same
property owner has a property right to
do something else with property and so
then the question is what is is that
it's being remanded to you to make a
decision on the architecture for
whatever the replacement structure is
you have the jurisdiction to do that but
they there you have to balance that you
know whatever it is that you're going to
do against the fact that they have
constitutional rights to develop their
property but outside good they should
they should well I guess can I ask a
clarification of language the property
owner if they if they get turned down by
ARB for a new design they can appe
VAB to get that design approved yes okay
a design approved maybe not that one a
design and then Bap it's their full
jurisdiction at that point yeah as an
appeal body right as an appeal body
should be
there and if they say no then they could
appeal to counsel right right okay yeah
I mean I don't expect that ever to
happen but it's good to know right it
could happen yeah the that could happen
is important for me so I understand the
here the it actually could happen and
I'm not even talking about any specific
case I just think it could happen yeah
absolutely WR I mean another question
this kind of Segways into um you know
arb's jurisdiction to on design right
yeah that a homeowner and I I've never
seen this before but we've certainly
hinted to applicants that we would like
a particular design to reference the
original structure if it was demo
right mimic and but I'm not even going
to use mimic because I want to if I say
reference then
um that is something for the applicant
to
consider they don't have to there's
nothing in our in
our there's no ordinance that says that
that is one of the
stand
earlier has to be this sty that's right
don't
I'm I'm glad we don't have that at the
same time you know it may be at some
some you know design that comes up that
all five voting members are saying look
you know because of the situation on
this property it just that's what we
feel needs to happen here that it needs
to reference whatever you know um for
whatever the history of the property or
you know importance of the former design
or whatever it is the applicant can
still say no right they can B Bap could
affirm you or reverse right and I have a
feeling that would be exactly the rare
case that would be appealed right yeah
and so Bap doesn't have to disagree with
you they could agree with you entirely
right and affirm what you did right I
think that on architectural likelihood
is they man very well I want
to you have another thing bill I want to
get back to something too far 14 it's
sunshine thing because I don't know if
we all know but we were talking about
privately deliberating publicly
deliberating so Sunshine laws or in just
like in referencing round robin sort of
or
this they can't so Bill can't talk to
Pete about a project outside of
ARB right because there's there's rules
that say you know a quorum is seven or a
quorum is five so own Council like I
couldn't talk to more than two people
but I could talk to two people we ran
into things it was like Jen Jen have you
talked to two people Robinson yes no I
can't talk to you on that mat so I had
to go to somebody else been here no
talking at all
between that's what I've heard right so
so they cannot it different they cannot
talk to any other board member whereas
when I was on C that legislative body
and they're quasi judicial body yes okay
so Council can that here's this is why
people are often confused because
Council can sit in a
legislative administrative or quasi
judicial proceeding yes I remember that
all three of those when they are in a
quasi sitting in a quasi judicial
capacity the rules that you're
describing absolutely in Sunshine Law
you can't have a majority of members in
a pre-arranged meeting to discuss
business in Sunshine Law just a
different thing that's a public meeting
thing because then you have a public
that's like a legislative a legislative
body when I'm acting and now I remember
this I answered my own question because
when Mark Fisher would say you're a
quasa Judicial you cannot talk to any
other council member and you cannot talk
to the public you're a judge outside of
private deliberation so your
deliberation has to be all of the
members who are making the decision have
to be present typically or don't vote
makes sense and you can only talk about
the the deliberations that you doing and
nothing else no other discussions no
policy discussions no you know any of
those discussions and that and then you
can even if you any decision that you're
made you make has to be announced
publicly outside of that deliberation of
all of the members present you cannot
privately talk among yourselves you
cannot email back and forth you can't do
any of that typically I'm involved in
all those deliberations and all
Communications are with me and then out
to other members again same thing with
Council Council sits in deliberations
they is in a quasi judicial case same
thing all the members present they can
talk about what they heard ask questions
about what applies do all of that in
those cases we memorialize something in
writing typically it doesn't come till
the next meeting and again they like you
well like Bap did they announced the
decision they've had their deliberation
Council used to to make comments about
their decisions and then over time I
think they've gotten away from doing
that we they just accept the the
decision so that's the way that process
works you cannot have private
conversations outside of majority of the
members um just like you can't you know
same thing we had the discussion about I
think Mark presented this year at the
hearing or at the board and commission
meeting you can't you know do private
invest vations of applications before
you you're limited to what is presented
to you by the applicants um if you're
going to view a property and he's the
entirety of the board who goes together
to do it that
other way yeah other than driving by on
the we can't talk sweet we can't talk
about it we can walk around and and
observe but we can't talk but then you
can talk about it in the meeting in the
meeting you can yes the point
is does that have to be a public meeting
when
they but the public doesn't you don't
necessarily have to be entitled to go
into the property but it is it's like a
jury view you know you take your jury
out to the site they can look at
whatever so same thing they so we have
to give public notice yes well then if
it's public notice can they talk while
they're at the site if the public isord
of it uh yeah if there's a record of it
right and the public is allowed to be
present when they're
talking I think it's better not to
about a that's already come through and
done it's under construction talk
abouts what is anything pending before
you relating to them no so this project
that came through six months ago we
voted it's all approved moving forward
yeah can we stop out with a board member
to majority and look at the
construction yes if it's not before you
I would this this this is a very good
point and I was going to bring it up
after that's right once pending right
once it's out of our jurisdiction
because the decision has been made and
it's in construction then we then you
and I if we go to to look at a building
that it's no longer in our purview right
so we're just citizens right talking
about it right now even if we talked
about the case when it was before us
that case has already been closed so can
we talk about that case once it's all
been closed and it's
it's if you do not have a pending
application before you and there isn't
going to be another one you know it's
done moved in it's done right yes yeah
you can talk about because I think
that's what in why we're on Republic
here why would we do that well because
we there's so many things that come
through and submitted to us that we are
very interested in that they can follow
through and it seem the examples that
you know that that are being built it's
like well look this this is why we have
these challeng this is what we're trying
to protect against for this is a great
detail so it's it's good for the board I
think see things develop because it's
the reality what we work on with you can
also talk about them in a public meeting
too freely well and that's something
that I think we're going to continue to
talk about and might have you know
certain but you have to be careful if
there's going to be another application
coming before you for the same property
and you know it then no no no no doubt I
think be careful it has to be like fine
and you're not nothing's going to be
coming back no I wouldn't make a habit
of it it's a rare
think there's there's all sorts of stuff
that gets built and it's like but I
think you guys do a great job of you
know I can't drive every single Street
all the time and you guys do a great job
of calling me and many many times we can
improve it retroactively without having
to drag them through another board you
know a reprimand I you know we're trying
to Matt's been really awesome about
helping me feel okay about navigating
that mediation on projects that are
missing something but like we're gonna
bring them all back to the board for
every single little thing I don't know
no no
especially things throughout the and
we're done we voted it's all done and
it's like well what's going what's this
what's going
on we have we're changing our workflows
before St acacy I would like a design
all final design review verification
I've talked to my inspectors about
getting a rough design review
verification AKA if there's a window
that's supposed to be there and the
homeowner decided they don't want the
window there I've instructed Brock and
tell his inspectors to fail their
framing inspection if the window was
missing um and then they will have to
come to me and find out why they failed
okay so things like that if there's a
deck that's massive but then I was going
to ask if there are any volunteers that
final design review
verification comes because eventually in
my workflow before they get their final
final they will have to have a if if
they've gone to and I can do this in our
software it's an if then statement if
they went to ARB Bap or ma m
architectural they have to have a final
designer verification before they get
their final inspection I I I would be I
would be happy too if it could rotate
back no just rotate like one month it's
you next month it's you next month it's
me quick eyes on the drawing drawing are
we talking mon are we talking more
frequent than that I mean they I haven't
dove into that yet I you know we had 22
building permits issued in 2023 I don't
know how many of those I gotta run those
reports and figure out how many went to
ARB and then that would give me and when
you decide when you distill that down
that'll tell me how many you guys should
maybe I mean maybe 50 I
don't distribute make sure none of us
have more than it would be essentially
all your ARB applications yeah honestly
so well that's but they don't all get
done within the year I so I would be
happy to do that as long as when we're
asked to make that review that we're not
having to go back and find all the
information from the ARB
decision would all be right there this
is be open topic we have to have legal
yeah I'm a little nervous about that
already voted and approved and bringing
us back I was just ask is there
liability
sta okay that's fair that's why I
brought up because you're here you can
you can instruct me on things like that
okay well let's we'll dive into that
yeah but I'm just letting you know
that's that was on my mind it's like
could I get a could I get a volunteer to
go with me because but wait a minute I I
mean if we've already rendered our
decision then can't I as a just a
citizen practicing architect do the
review for the city do an administrative
review for the city yeah
you're doing a field review compliance
no it just be it'd be looking at the ARB
what was presented at the ARB and
looking at the permit
drawings doing a field rev
talking no we go to the house we get two
drawings in front of us you say oh the
column detail I know you love column
details column details aren't right Matt
you okay they don't get their final
inspection till the colum details change
or whatever it is yeah so you're you're
going You're just really going as an
expert not as a decision maker exactly I
be the decision maker yeah but in any
case all of this is being is happening
after the decision was rendered by our
body yeah it
like you wouldn't call the applicant and
say something or the Builder you'd call
you would flag it and we take care and
and to be honest it's already happening
because that's how I find out about a
lot of them just just kind of a
Cooperative okay like that's by us I
bring it to the city's I yeah no that's
I'm not do I live in the community I
want it to be on purpose you didn't do
it on purpose I don't want you to drive
by and go oh I want it to be on purpose
rules
purpan so they can be an expert for me
consultant to me well great I mean
there's a lot of stuff there's a lot of
stuff that we remand to decision maker
with an administrative staff function
what I'm saying gotcha yeah because I'll
be the
decision St
function people are
will
ad gocha right no that's not the way it
works
your face me I don't understand we'll
talk later so you're
having yeah however that works for field
review but what about when ARB renders a
decision this is my last question um
when when ARB renders a
decision and a lot of times that'll go
to Karen for doing you know we remand it
to the design consultant to work out
these
details um is there a an opportunity
after you've worked with the applicant
well it's no longer the applicant
anymore because that we've already
rendered our decision so they're just
working with
staff
and do we when the permit drawings are
issued after you've done all that work
is there a chance for you know us as
citizen expert witnesses to review at
that point I would say table it if You'
feel like that's necessary table it yeah
to the next month don't pass say don't
pass it to me if you if you're not
comfortable you're saying constru do
construction drawings match A or B
before they go to build they to that
that's her 309 122 and kind of kind of
me too it comes to me for zoning person
I actually do look at the architectural
we actually talked to Bar about that too
because we had one recently that was
totally like built not in compliant with
what was approved some of the drawings
were inconsistent so you can see how one
person could have slipped but now we
also talked to baa about like just you
know we know you you're really good at
construction details but can you also
keep an eye on design and we're flagging
each other in a different way because a
lot of times design is tied to other
liability issues that you know code
issues right my my pet peeve over the
last couple years is the details in
these applications so we're proving it
right and a plan but there's no there's
not or two and I still think they're
really light right but that approval
from us as Des approval is is just a
drawing when they start to do the
construction drawing all that detail
gets put in and we never
see so I'm pushing I'm G to continue to
push for more Dimensions you slopes of
roofs height some just so there's some
quantitive things that we can compare to
construction drivs that have to have
right I I think it's been too loose
right a nice hand rendering it's
beautiful it's fantastic I love the
design but there's nothing in there that
I can grab on to that says it doesn't
comply because it's close we didn't well
we had to change it because it didn't
work my R so no specific example but so
I think as as a board we're GNA continue
to push
for and I'll say to that I've already
talked to Karen about it and I know my
goal is to have a template for
Architects and or homeowners and say
this is what a good drawing set looks
like this is what good we don't have any
you know we take off the title blocks
and we don't have anyone we can't runr
any one but like this right here and you
guys check it and you say it's got roof
slopes it's got this it's got that this
and you know whether they do it on a
graphing paper and it's a homeowner or
it's an architect they have all the
information on the drawing that we want
to see and they can download off our
website and say oh that's okay I gotta
have all these things and then it allow
my staff because Robin's eventually
going to check stuff when they come in
it's just a check do you have
XYZ that's that's we've talked about it
and that's a goal colors all those
things absolutely can as a board in a
retreat review that with staff the
checklist yeah yeah I would love
specific to a project or check just a
template check yeah I would want you to
so for instance yes it's your it's your
checklist I I care but I I I care that
you care I care what you want it's not
for me it's just yeah it put it puts the
data into the drawings getting approved
that's on file approve documents and
then it gives you something to compare
yes much more than just pretty rering
and trying to decipher that into
construction DRS is difficult it can be
difficult so does your new design
include columns yes please include
details of column bases and capitals for
ARB
review well that should be in there so I
have this and you guys did this with me
years ago and I but it's shocking so the
people that come in all the time yeah
slowly migrated just well this is a huge
different direction from what our board
was doing just even five years ago right
that was not this this was like the
opposite of what our board chair was
saying about our group saying what we
just review you know for context and you
know roof shapes and you know but to go
into actual detail was something that
was not D driven for this group so this
is this is a huge shift I just want to
say one thing when it comes to this and
and I'm done I promise but so I'm going
through our our forms our forms like
fencing forms it's it's all jargon at
the bottom that nobody ever reads it's
it's it's the it's the affidavit that
you scroll through all the way the
bottom you hit check yep I read it okay
that's what happens I I can it happens
with fences it happens with all of it
I'm I've already revamped the fences my
goal I got to revamp they ARB form so
they have to check each box and it's an
if then if if you do are modifying a
roof you have to have the roof slope
what is the roof slope and things pop up
it's going to take time to get there
I've already changed the fence thing
that they have to check each box that
they have read it it's not one check box
at the bottom they have to check all of
them so good side out it's going to be
this height like you have to read it to
check it or else you won't accept it
they have to check it they have to do
eight checks instead of one check take
it down you didn't do um so I'll get
there but that's where we're going with
that's where're head I love it and
that'll help the process right because I
think one of the strange things when I
application years ago is it assumed I
knew if it was going to be dza or not I
was need a VAR and 95% of the applicants
don't know right The Savvy Architects
and people they know but most people
have no IA yeah right and it
was we walk out through them but it was
just kind of like the Assumption was you
would know and you just need follow that
it's kind of true in every jurisdiction
I gotta say it's not
unique example this in terms of like
reviewing the detail next store like we
saw some ring but how that kind of boils
down to details and everything there's a
lot to do that's a big project there a
lot to be said there and and I'm I'm
concerned about that I'm concerned about
how
that's well it's coming back to you and
and that's that's a huge improvement
over what are what the bza used to do
and what ARB when we first started used
to do where you know I I love our board
chair but he would say um you're done
like that we're we're done with the
review now it goes to staff and they can
work out all that stuff but you should
be able to just sleep at night knowing
that you've done what you were required
to do for an ARB
approval well the whole the whole
process has come a long way I mean I
want to remind you guys that 24 years
ago when I started we didn't have
architecture review anyone could do
anything
I mean it is amazing how far the work
that was done back then well no and I
just like to mention I just like to
mention that we had a we had a historic
preservation working group meeting and
we had the The Head of the State
preservation office in attendance with
other experts from State preservation
office and they were amazed at how much
our ARB does so just to give you a
little bit to explain on that a little
bit I don't want to take too much time
because we really need to also I need to
do a couple administrative things right
before you guys leave we we they have a
checklist to to complete a certification
for historic um designation I'm not
going to go into the details uh we will
eventually and we I did receive the
checklist when we kept talking about our
process we're pretty convinced that we
have almost everything on that checklist
it's just not packaged to get certified
and now that I got the checklist I think
we probably do um I just and I'll say a
couple more things when I'll shut up I I
want to set up another workshop for this
group um with Katherine no I mean a
candy I will say I'm gonna say this to
you my contributions for the
architectural
information are worthless to you I mean
I am not an architect I love to stay in
my lane and I love to give Ken her he
likees for us to stay on too so that's
why you're here I think just more
procedural things and things so happy to
be well there's a bigger thing so so my
main agenda item for the next Workshop
is um the a guy named Trevor Fischer who
owns Precision slate um they're they're
in they're implementing a slate
preservation program at Precision slate
tile and we're not in the business of
supporting you know one or another
business but they came to us and said
could we have an opportunity to present
VI a slate tile education seminar s
whatever talk to whatever group you want
and I think it would be awesome he's
going to bring in every type of slate
he's going to show us how slate is you
know what needs to be done to have it um
uh you know put on the right way how to
determine if it's Pennsylvania slate
which we hear that word and it's like
we're done um so I would like to do that
in October I'm also going to include in
that a historic the historic
preservation committee and probably up
just give him an option to send that
that but I thought I would start with
you guys is there a better time is
October
good and is there a time of day
that
Friday think Friday Fridays Fridays at
what time do you guys prefer so I just
put out it's all over the map for me
just put out a doodle okay I'll give
like morning noon and late afternoon and
just morning is bad for me so anything
after 10:30 11 is perfect okay
I I I I remembered what I wanted to ask
can I real quick yeah I'll finish really
quick by just saying I put I I have this
readly available I don't know why it
isn't in an easy accessible location on
the city's website we did this together
as a board years ago I thought it was um
but we will revise it so I'll send this
to you guys and you can make comments
and and I'll incorporate them and then
we can have a different meeting where we
go over
go over it and get it put up um this
question is a simple yes or no but when
when we when we when we are reviewing I
know when we are review I'm trying to
make it as clear as possible here um
when we are reviewing a demo case and it
comes to the
vote are ARB members required to
State why they voting yes or no on a
demo
individually um wait say that again a
member
required are we required to I because
you know we have we have this whole
thing where we go down and say
historically significant and worthy of
preservation and you go to the next and
you have to go down the list I find that
there are um ways that um if I have to
describe why I'm voting yes or no based
on this this this this this this and
this I feel like uh I'm under duress
because no because there are some where
I I can't verbalize it like I don't have
enough information and I feel like I'm
about to make a statement that could be
legally um thrown out because I didn't
clearly State why on each of those items
in the demo process
so why can't I just vote Yes or
no you can't okay here's what I would
say about all of those things um there's
nothing in your code I well I no I would
have to say see if your code requires
findings of facts and conclusions of law
I don't recall that it does for demo for
anything oh because we've always had
that I know and the reason there's a
reason for that the reason is that a
review in board or a reviewing Court
looks to if you want difference to what
it is you do what they would say is you
need to tell me your reason you need to
tell me why you decided what you did and
I'll review that but if you don't tell
me anything you're just a yes or no
there's no findings or conclusions in
what you did I'm going to review it what
lawyers would call
denovo I'm going to look at all the
stuff myself make my own independent
decision and apply the facts as it was
that's the way a court would look at it
that's the way Council looks at it on
review that's the way VAP looks at on
review so the reason that Bexley has
adopted that habit is because you've had
good advice to say if you're going to
make these decisions and you want
difference to what is your decided
you've got to tell us what you're
deciding I think not just a blank it's
like when you you say to your parents
can I do something and they go no
and you say why not and I said so I
we've all done that I think we are there
to help guide and proof so saying no I
think giving our opinion on design case
demo case because of the complexities of
that totally understand where you're
coming
from very stressful the reasons that
that you believe support your decision
and you could not but I can tell you
that vaap has that appealed to council
too and sometimes there was one
particular decision where Council beap
gave no explanation as to how they
looked at the code or why they did it
went to council Council has to give them
difference and they basically said to
them and maybe even in their opinion we
would love to give you difference but
when you tell us nothing there's nothing
to defer to other than a no well that's
the that's the case that the garage that
the garage I remember the garage that's
the case that it started us I'm giving
reasons all the time like that said you
learn anecdotally that's why we ask you
for reasons get the okay but the way
that this demo you know list is
structured is that the burden uh the
burden on us to you know to on our yes
or no to go through that list and
sequentially show the reason why each
step along the way we say no well there
isn't that statute is it historically or
architecturally significant and worthy
of
preservation uh yes okay um then and
then you go to reduction of property
value yes unreasonable maintenance cost
restoration pres preservation imposes
unreasonable costs and all I have on
here is how do we prove how do I how do
we prove that how can I vote on that if
I can't prove it so Bill that that
ordinance that Karen has out for
everybody doesn't say you have to find
every Factor it is here are the
standards that you have to weigh and
consider in making your decision it just
be one it could be one it could be two
if you can articulate what what a
reviewing Authority is looking for is
for you to articulate your reasoning and
for me it's the applicant hasn't
approved those and I don't feel that
there's a preponderance of evidence and
you can say that yeah uh and so yes or
no I
Prov my answer because I I got into it
recently and I went into depth of
answering all these different things and
and I found like that's how I needed to
navigate through that probably gonna
change my Approach because all I need to
know is has it been proven to me or not
and that's there's a yes right and
that's I can state that the evidence is
I weigh the evidence and I don't see
proof here that this just
if you could arate some reasons why your
major reasons why that's helpful to the
reviewer no I agree because if he gets
appealed knowing that it couldn't get
appealed as and that's essentially and I
understand why when you said there's no
prosecutor to the board that that is
that that is well I remember I got
probably five or six on Council and I
and and she was saying we didn't have
anything it's like okay but what were
you thinking what so you need that can't
read we can't read your mind right
that's why and I understand it it's that
we promote that message even on our
recommendations why we want thingsand we
very careful with our finance effects I
think we need to continue and you know
Bap does the same thing they understand
it they've been REM for not saying a
reason just one Bob's the only load Bap
no Ryan and Ryan yeah I think it's full
there's a couple lawers on that I was
the only architect when I that may but
anyway but for example when Bap does a
variance they have seven factors to they
don't have to find all of them they just
have to find on balance you know does it
support and they are pretty good about
articula on balance we
think well let me ask I mean just to
clarify we do not need to explain I mean
we can help by saying it but if we don't
but that only is the case if there are
no findings of facts and decision of the
board you know at at the end if it's if
it's not a denovo situation one thing
that that you could do is and some
boards do is they make a motion I move
that we deny the permit for the reason
that you know I don't know whatever it
is it's architecturally significant
because of ABC and d and it is
historically valuable to the community
because CD and you can pick your reasons
and the whole board can vote on those
reasons the problem is with your board
it's hard for me to when I hear the
conversation I mean and even among
yourselves I'm not sure you always agree
on all those things which is fine you're
not to that's why you're a board but if
you can if in the motion you can
articulate the reasons you find the
board can vote on it in that way and
have those reasons articulated but that
would I think a lot of times when you're
making your motions
you you're reading you're trying to read
consensus maybe you don't know I don't
know but I think on demos especially
because there's now been a more recent
precent is being very clear the position
of why yes or no right as a board as
well as a board but as an individual
who's being reported and being Minister
being taken you know I think it's
important to say I'm not in favor of
this because of this this is my
reasoning for in discussion but I don't
think we should have to when it comes to
the vote you know go into an explanation
of the vote yeah oh no I think once in
the discussion yes but when we're voting
we should have to say I vote this and
this is why IE which is which is what we
have done in the past and I find that I
don't have a problem okay person so the
board speaks for its motion so if
there's there are reasons that everybody
agrees to I would Artic encourage you to
articulate them in the motion in the
motion in the motion I also finding the
fact as the finding the facts
conclusions but but we have been going
St further we were going around okay the
Motions called but second we're going
around and then every person was going
into this explanation before they we
just did that
that happen well part of the reason for
that is because just having a motion and
voting on the motion without any
explanation of Reason which is what was
H which is the contrary that happens is
we wouldn't do that I mean I think this
is a great way to move forward is to
just have it in the motion there'll be
lots of deliberation there'll be
discussion tops will come out this is
what I'm thinking this is what I this is
I mean I can say those statements in the
discussion but when we're
voting and this is something our board
is we we have to get better at this is
when we make the motion we need to say
it clearly but what if you have
different opinions like if three of you
want yes and two of you want no the
motion can't necessarily this you know
be haven't got that yet I but we can
deliberate about what the motion is
going to say correct yeah but hold on
hold on I think help me out here this is
what Bob did and I thought it was great
I agree he they
rejected they did not Grant the variance
okay that was one motion okay and then
they went back and said now I make a
motion to uh do you re the motion is
made I don't know how he said it do you
reject the application so if you said
yes to the
variance then you would say no to reject
the application right you were opposite
and then you had to give a reason why
you said no to rejec the application
conversely those that said no to the
variance were rejecting the whole
application and they said yes and then
each board member went around and say
yes I reject the application and here's
my reasons why and then it was all in
the minutes and it was it was two it was
two separate motions it was great I was
like what did he just do there and then
I went back and I was like oh yeah okay
he was getting it all on the
record so if it got of historical
precedence that we kind of like oh if it
goes to council now Council knows
exactly why each board member rejected
the application or would have accepted
the application based on because it was
a split vote it was like three to four
in favor against the variance it was so
they had to go around so I think maybe
if if in a case of demolition you could
say we you know do you vote in favor of
the demolition yes or no and then you
could go back and say okay now we're GNA
go around the room and if you voted in
favor do you reject the application as a
whole and then you say you do that whole
thing I think maybe that could be in
your rules or
most aun not complicated there are
complicated factors that we need to
maybe
SP if we
can very helpful thank you Catherine
that was very helpful thank you for
coming all right