there we go
my call to order the September
2023 meeting of the Bexley Board of
zoning and planning
um Kathy will you call the role of the
members present please
here
I'm here as well thank you
the
um I'm looking for the
agenda here
do we have the minutes from the prior
from the uh
we do not we do not okay so the we'll
we'll uh review the minutes of the
August meeting
and then uh pass on them at the next
meeting at the October meeting as well
as the minutes of this meeting if we are
able to get those out to you
the
city code provides for an opportunity
for the public to comment
publicly about the uh workings of the
board of zoning and planning if anybody
here uh wishes to make a comment that
they're free to do so this is not about
a particular case but just about the
general workings of the board anybody
wish to do so
I see no hands
so we'll move on to the old business
which is uh the cases that are set for
this evening's docket the first one is
bz
ap-23-23 which has been
uh table to the October meeting is that
correct ladies
2200 East Main so if you're here for
2200 East Main
uh come back next month you won't won't
waste any more your time
it'll be fun okay I'll take your word
for that one
uh the next case involves 2524 Bexley
Park
the applicant is Ryan brothers
landscaping Pat Ryan the owners are
David kaplanski and Monique caterman
cademian
the applicant is uh seeking approval for
a special permit to allow six foot high
fence along the side property line that
the application was tabled at the August
24th meeting at I think at the board's
request almost because of the situation
that we had and which we appreciate
so would the applicant please come
forward
Mr chairman yes sir uh chick I have to
review recuse myself so okay all right
um
swear do you swear for Mr Ryan that
you'll to testimony you'll give us
anything will be the truth the whole
truth and nothing but the truth I do
thank you very much
Kathy can you tell us a little bit about
this matter
uh
property and
it's taller than what it's allowed to be
so the applicant has has contacted these
submitted his concerning applications
seeking his social permit which is
criteria in place that the board should
consider when reviewing and I would have
to say that the applicant has provided
information to support the criteria
established for a special one model
and if the board finds it appropriate to
Grant a special permit and property line
is approximately three feet behind the
sidewalk which will determine if our
staff needs to get consultant with you
the landscape the board entry and public
art of commission we need to review it
if it is within the city right-of-way
the only concern is the proximity of the
fence to the driveway entrance however
it's been in place for over eight weeks
and would only affect the owner when
backing out of the property if it has
not been a problem as a bit
should be fine throughout the current
location I'm going to allow going back
to the account
I mean that's the staff's position is
that what that is
that because it's been okay for eight
weeks it's okay no okay
it does meet the criteria it has the
opening along
side right
yeah that problem with the sidewalk
and it's also a lower fence along the
driveway side of this yes so
I think the openings allow visibility I
will defer to the board in angling that
they may be consider due to the fact
that it does go right up to the drug
all right
Mr Ryan Yes chairman you wanna
comment on idea first I want to
apologize this should have been included
on the regular fence we did one on the
west side and I thought we had a permit
for both
um and you know I have tremendous
respect for what you the board chair
Kathy what you guys do and you know
don't want to do anything outside of
that
um so really we're open to
um
us that is to the right
correct it would connect
um but it's actually it's on the top I'm
sorry Kathy
um so it would be this portion of it
from the southern side
uh going west so that's the one that we
thought we had the pyramid before or we
had the permanent four we thought it was
for both of them and that's why I'm back
here
and that is that one is Too Tall that's
the one we're cuts when we're cutting
we're cutting down this one is six feet
yeah the one on the one on the side
casting him side is six feet tall with
18 inches of lattice
is there going to be
I happen to drive by this quite
frequently just a couple times yeah but
is there going to be plantings between
the fence on casting ham and the
sidewalk yes okay yes there isn't there
aren't yet in the correct okay
I was concerned about watering uh so
we're gonna do that later in the fall
okay so the watering is not of concern
I
hearken back to the case of the driveway
on Gould
and
the amount of unbelievable hassle that
we gave that landowner there when
I didn't see that there was any visual
impairment but here there's
total visual impairment I mean there
needs to be a
Vision triangle
at the corner of the driveway well here
I'm right here right
because they can find out or we're not
flying out they come out at the normal
speed and they can't see what's here
along the sidewalk till they're
practically out of the driver
and I know this is a lower fence here
but it's this sense that is causing
problem I think it needs to be angled
and like a 45
okay you have a problem with that I
personally don't and speaking of Dale
what's actually interesting is that we
were talking about an angle what we
ended up giving the neighbor an angle on
that side just because it made sense for
everybody yeah and he was concerned
about it too and we did the sight lines
there where we actually had him back out
and see exactly where in comparison to
what was existing and that's kind of
what we did is we did it at an angle
yeah I personally have a problem with it
I am 100 about safety yeah
um you know there's one particularly one
neighbor that is used as a walker and
she walks all day every day around the
block there and you know if she's got no
ability to react to a car coming out and
they would have no ability to see if she
were answering and I I just think it's a
well-traveled street too it is that's
true for you know all the kids go down
there also to go to school right yeah
and it just cut here
trees instead so the trees are gone yeah
the trees are gone trees are gone they
had a honey or uh Forsythia on the back
so we right cut that back so it would be
relatively easy I think that there's a
landscape bed on where that tree is but
I think it can be a rearranged I think
it's just perennials yeah
absolutely
huge huge 12 foot tall for city they're
all gangling out of the ground
specifically
sure would you be okay with a little bit
of height along to solve from the fence
along the cast and hand side but when we
get to that corner drop drop down low
sure
it being that corner and knowing people
who normally shave a corner if they can
with a car would would grass be
acceptable up to that point and have uh
the
um casting hand side of it be
actually landscaped yeah
so like if we cut that if we cut that
corner off
on a 45 and don't have
you know could that from that corner to
the drive to the sidewalk in the
driveway be grass
just a little triangle sure yes
the property owner on that side probably
needs to call his
um lawn and and as a garden person and
have them shave the trees there that are
on the on the driveway as well sure
whoever that guy is the honeysucking I
think it's hard to get a hold of
um
well I think 45 is good you know how
many feet you would cut off I mean I
leave that to your own discretion but
enough so that they could see before
somebody gets to the driveway sure
before the car that you know it's the
driver's window really that you got to
be figuring where does the driver's
window before the car gets to the
sidewalk
have the ability to see who's coming
down the sidewalk
so I would just say I don't know how
many feet that is but I think there's a
formula for that chairman yeah it
probably there is and I think we brought
that back up when we were doing Dale
okay because it's a pretty standard you
know we're not the only municipality
that has these issues so I think there's
like a standard across the board that we
can figure that out I mean I don't I
think it's pretty much a universal issue
yeah right
outside
only from where intersections eight
but
30 deep French population
and that's for landscaping purposes but
I think what we
need now the holy jail property is
anything like that and staff could
simply verify that it's out of there
perfect
any other comments from well let me ask
any audiences or anybody Pro or con this
particular application
I don't see any indication such members
of the board any questions or further
comments
what I'm cured what is the height that's
permitted
after 12 to 18 inches and open Style
as opposed to a solid fence in that
special permit could be considered
with that design
at a maximum height of 16. gotcha and
that's what is on the casting ham side
correct right
okay
but also that angled piece
the defense along the driveway I believe
is forward right and what's along the
passing Camp is six click right so that
angle
would that be six feet
well I mean I guess
they show The View
yeah I mean
if it's four feet or six feet I don't
think it's gonna affect the sight line
is it I mean I don't know
yeah I think it's a good question
it would it would
negate a large portion of having a
privacy yeah you would see directly into
the backyard for long so if we could
keep that six foot and tie that back
into the floor foot at that angle I
think that's fine okay
all right
any additional comments or questions
if not Kathy can we have findings of fat
and conclusions of law
in session 12 64.03 B to allows six foot
fans along the east side poverty line
should be granted the following
conditions that a landscape plan be
reviewed approved by the landscape
consultant
hello we've been considered right away
it would be the tree on the public
garden commission it's okay to begin
applicants to provide a 45 degree angle
for the safety reasons subject to staff
or the driveway intersex
right
the design is submitted
yeah it's already up
defense so
that's the best proof of what is going
to happen
all right
um
does that reading of the application or
the findings suitable to your client Mr
chairman okay thank you Mr Ryan
members of the board do I hear a motion
to approve the findings effect and
conclusions of law so moved Marsh thank
you Mr Marsh
thank you Mr Turner
Kathy please call the roll
yes
since we only need three votes to pass
correct I'm going to abstain from voting
for various reasons but the matter
passes and you can move ahead with the
special permit thank you thank you all
appreciate it and thanks for uh tabling
to this month too absolutely thank you
the next case is case bzap-23-19
involving 733 Vernon
the applicant is K Brian Wernicke and
the owner is Barbara Wernicke the
applicant is a seeking approval from
bzap for variants to allow a screened
garden house
1.5 feet from the north property line
if approved the ARB requested this
application be remanded back to the ARB
for design review and approval this
application was moved to bzap for review
by the ARB without recommendation one
way or the other is that true yes that's
true all right is the applicant here
please on this case if so please come
forward sir
raise your right hand if you would in
your name please uh Brian
uh do you swear or affirm that the
testimony you're about to give this
evening will be the truth the whole
truth nothing but the truth I do thank
you very much
Kathy tell us a little bit about this
request please
this is the our six dining District
standard lot size is 70 by 120 is
performing Lots this lot was 52 and a
half by 135 Mexico's section 12 5210
requires a 20-foot setback from the
street side property line for a 52 and a
half foot wide live which further
requires accessory structures to be 25
feet
from the side Street Apartment One the
structure in question was installed
without benefit of a review application
or building permit the fact that this is
also a little unusual on design is being
called a Greek Garden Spring makes it
questionable as to how it should be
classify the structure is seven feet
tall at the eaves eight feet tall of the
ridge seven feet wide and 32 feet in one
it's constructed 1.2 feet inside and
parallel to the north property line
along Mountain Street the structure such
as events is limited to 48 inches in
height along the street side property
line
all right a new 42 inch high fence
replaced the previous 42 inch height
fence the garden screen is attached to
this new 42 inch high fence
the applicant went to the architecture
review board on September 14th for
design review however the ARB did not
provide a recommendation other than to
allow the applicant to First proceed
for first present their case to the
zoning board if they can successfully
obtain a variance should the board of
zoning and planning find it appropriate
to granting 23.8 foot variance to the
required 25 foot setback from the north
side property line you can choose to
send it back to the ARB or design review
there is concern about the finished
product
will it become an eight foot wall along
the property line once the screens are
in place will there be a rook will this
need restrictions to keep from being a
greenhouse with glass if it does receive
a variance will need to be landscaped
along the right-of-way
a lot of questions huh all right
Mr Wernicke tell me what it is what is
this
Contraption well I try to use the right
word here what is this I don't want to
say structure it's a squirrel cave it's
a squirrel cage
looks like it has a big squirrel though
yeah
so tell me what you're planning to do
here and why you're planning to do it
the way it looks here okay so you know
we put in a new fence
at the time we put the fence in we put
in the poles
um all we're trying to do is just
literally screen off the garden so that
you know it'll keep the critters out so
she can
you know she's she's a big Gardener
she's been doing it for 30 years up on
that corner I hear you and so what
Critters are we keeping out squirrels
yes exactly and rabbits and and they
can't climb that thing
the squirrels I mean they're pretty
acrobatic no they will but the the thing
of it is is the whole thing will be
screened in when it's all finished so is
the garden contained entirely within the
underneath the roof yes
how does rain get to the underneath it's
only going to be screened
I see on top as well yeah right and what
I've done is you know there's each one
of those sections is its own frame
um there's a frame on the upper side a
frame on the lower side and then there's
frames on the roof also
that you know once you know oh that's a
good picture now I see the garden yeah
once we get through this you know that's
what we're planning on doing is then
taking those frames out putting screen
over them and then putting it back in
um we've even you know we've also got a
screen door there for the for the
opening there
has to be a door obviously somewhere
right that's the that's the air the oval
area there that you see
okay
is this an ancillary structure
or accessory structure
I mean arbors
and structures
well this is an accessory
leave it to me yeah there you go
well I gotta say I don't think I've seen
anything like this either in all the
years on these zoning boards neither has
architecture review board that's why
just because I I didn't explain that oh
that what they were they were like send
it to zoning first yeah
I can understand I think we should send
it back to ARB before we before we do
anything on it well we have a winner
until next growing season we can keep
going back and forth
yeah we've got plenty of time now
that's up to the discussion
but you know my original thought was
chicken wing
was what chicken wire
the the you know the door is actually a
you know wood screen door just like what
you'd put on a
on an outside porch or something
yeah this is up
what you see is where what you'd see if
you went there right now
so what do you do you start putting up
and somebody said hey you need a permit
to do this I see okay a live model it's
a live bottle yeah
yeah
it's interesting hmm
let me ask because it might be is
anybody here to comment one way or the
other on this case
Pro or con
no indication
you know
you need to be sworn in yeah you're not
testifying are you okay you're just
saying there's one of these at Franklin
Park okay but you don't intend to
testify on this case do you okay I know
well it's where you're in later you know
it's taken some time to get to where I'm
at oh I can see that yeah and you know
because we are a corner lot and there's
a whole lot of sidewalk traffic
you know I get a pretty good poll of
of the neighborhood of what people like
and I have not heard one
bad comment about it at all in fact I've
had a 12 or 14 year old say man this
looks really good I really am you know
exactly
well the other thing that we've got to
think about when we're on these zoning
boards is if we let this happen here
thanks to every single person in Mexico
can do this
And if every single yard in Bexley had
this would we be getting the
the the the
landscape view we want to have you know
I think that's part of the of the big
issue when you sit on these boards right
it's it's tough to we have to think our
way through it
and of course every year a new thing
pops up and we go wow when we're seeing
that before or can we let everybody in
Bexley have a uh Second Story living
quarters in their garage and then we'll
have every single person who actually
has a living quarter at the top of their
garage so you have to think yourself all
the way out to that
end when you are on the a board like
this and that's the tough part for us
because obviously this is a lot of work
this is uh got a lovely
what's word I want a lovely
um
reason for having it
so those are not the problem you know
the problem is
you can't
and I don't know what I don't want to
say exactly what the statue is without
reading it you can't just build as many
what we call ancillary structures in
your yard as you want there are limits
on what you're allowed to do right and
this is a pretty big
uh
I hesitate to use any word to describe I
don't know if it's a structure or what
it is right but it's
pretty big
yes
the post yes
and the height is because you need to be
able to walk around in there correct it
could be shorter or it could be you know
I you know I especially ordered a seven
foot door to be able to well you're a
tall guy right I knocked my head in you
know a lot of basements
out in the garden I don't have that
problem you know but I understand it
yeah
or you have to come up yeah
that's all right you have to be sworn in
them
tell me your name yeah
Anna do you swear or affirm the
testimony you'll give the board this
evening will be the truth the whole
truth and nothing but the truth I do
thank you very much so tell me what you
think
I take it the two of you are related in
some fashion
what a great way to celebrate it at the
B's app all right we'll give them a
little round of applause for 38 years
yeah it could have made it shorter I
didn't realize so I apologize that we
were doing something terribly you know
wrong but we could have made it shorter
but I felt that the Aesthetics would
have not been as as pleasing to besides
the fact that you know Brian Brian is
not the gardener he wouldn't necessarily
have to be in it but
um we just felt that the scale that that
would be
um the look would be better than like a
squared off kind of cage type thing I
don't know I mean I I maybe that's for
the future yeah
I also think
large but it looks
yeah I think if you were to drive five
or maybe because I'm used to it now it
doesn't quite seem as large as it as it
does there well it's 32 feet it says
here
we actually have neighbors that have
reached across the fence and taken
Tomatoes I'm chased them like anybody
cut my flowers so it's not like I'm just
reading but it's just I haven't gotten a
tomato
yeah between the squirrel
yeah
they're they're in my yard too don't
worry I hear you yeah
that's okay that's okay well you're
you're absolutely entitled to
to testify so it's not a problem
yeah the first survey was from the city
downtown and you know I should have
never used that uh yeah
and passing him yes
the actual structure I I wasn't it
angled so it was a little bit just
noticed yeah
the defense though was a little bit
further back from the property lines it
is where this is right at the property
line so they have a six foot fence and
then that the post structure was subject
to Karen's signing offline yeah but this
is also six foot from the sidewalk which
a lot of properties you know there again
it's where I'm at and then I understand
that but it's how far it close how close
it is to the property I understand
there's
and she's talking about a case at fair
and Cassie sure
it would need to be 25 feet
from the property line along the mound
and that structure is absolutely into
the backyard what so about 26 feet back
from where that I'm sorry 24 more feet
that I don't know how long does it grow
up 52
well how did you decide to be on this
side as opposed to the other side
the interior side requires a three foot
setback for an accessory structure that
the Met going to sundown
do you have any considerations
there's no sun on that side we have a
big buckeye tree which you can catch a
glimpse of right there
we can't have you cutting down any
Buckeye trees we will not be doing that
sir
well
so I guess the question here is
Mr chairway you collect your thoughts
could I ask a question sure please okay
um
if I miss this I'm sorry I was going
through the finding effects and
reviewing 12 52 10
who constructed this I did you did
you constructed the fence as well I did
not okay
so this hasn't been approved by any
engineer
correct okay
you're right I'm a mechanical engineer
by trade but okay oh okay
I'm glad I asked you well typically
structures exceeding 200 square feet
per minute
sure and how many square feet is this
tutorials
but is it really a structure
that's a question yes it is
because it has a roof
enormous I understand
[Music]
sorry this is their city and I'm just
sharing my findings and
getting their prescribing
well let's
review
what the request is here
I'm trying to find it here I can't get
it back sorry
there we go there you go 1082
so they need a variance
to allow screen garden house 1.5 so it's
the 1.5 feet from the north property
line and it would have to be 25 feet
from the property line
and if approved the ARB request is
something to be remain out okay so in
other words they need to know whether
they can have a variance
if we say you can have a variance then
they still need to go to ARB to talk
about the structure and how it looks and
Etc and then ARB will either say we
approve or disapprove and if they
approve it still comes back to us for
final approval
not necessarily you could approve
whatever design you would like but you
also have the option to defer the final
design to the RV if you're willing to
Grant a berries right but they won't be
coming usually when you guys remand
something back to ARB they don't come
back here again okay
or
people are going to want to build
something that is not a good viable it
doesn't have a roof doesn't really have
laws
and this person
you know is there much difference
between that and the pergola
so this is
still 25 minutes yes successories
uh do we have asking this to staff do we
have
any determination what the center line
grade is of the intersecting streets in
that area the center line correct
I'm what I'm concerned about is we're
asking for a um I'll answer that in a
second we're asking for a variance to 12
to 2 uh 10 A2 but I'm more concerned
actually about 12 52 10 C by the corner
lot in the residential district nothing
shall be erected Place planted or
allowed to grow erected in such a manner
as to material impede Vision between a
height of two and one half and ten feet
above the satellite grades or the
intersecting streets that was what I was
referring to
about
where you can't plant Landscaping that
exceeds at height limit when you measure
30 feet back from Where the streets
intersect that's a sport vehicular
traffic so that is more about our
right-of-way protecting the visual over
cars
yeah yeah
okay okay thank you thank you for the
clarification
I mean appreciate well let me ask you
this
this thing's up you you've got a lot of
uh Time and Labor here I mean I don't
see any alternatives
you need to know this either gets a
variance or it doesn't pretty much
because another alternative is you table
this case you would have to table it
and you come back with some alternative
that you have a better chance of passing
I don't know whether you have a perfect
chance or not you have to have three
votes out of five to get a past passing
vote here that's not everybody knows
what the rules the rules have changed
recently and sometimes we don't usually
there are seven people here but there's
only five one there's five when there's
seven you need four votes when there's
five you need three votes so you need
three positive votes to get the variance
and and the situation here is
you know if you came to us and it was a
one point you had to be two feet from
the property line and you're one and a
half
uh you know
we're thinking about a half a foot
now you're 23 and a half feet closer to
the property line than you can be so
you're asking for quite a significant
variance here from the zoning code
now
we didn't write the zoning code nobody
on this panel wrote the zoning code we
have to live with it essentially and
because we have to follow the law the
city council makes the laws we don't
make any laws here right we just
see when we're allowed to Grant
variances with this board is a lot of
grand variances from the zoning code
and there are
we have to follow what the statute tells
us as to when what the criteria are
there's no one criteria
that we have to you know that's that's
conclusory but there are about eight or
nine criteria and
you know this is this is and and so we
have to follow that I'm just giving you
uh the the ground rules that we have to
play with him so
um
is there anybody in the audience that's
that I already asked is anybody in the
audience here on this case I did ask
already Sam
I'm on Medicare you know it's hard to
remember stuff you know
um
all right
members of the board do you have any
questions I mean you know I mean I I
feel for the applicant but it to me it's
just too extreme it's it's too large and
to go from 20 feet to one and a half
feet and then basically we'd set a
precedent that every resident can come
in and build whatever they want wherever
they want and how can we defend that so
I mean yeah I just I just think it's you
know there's a there's a reason all
these things are in the code and there's
there's a reason that there's a 20-foot
setback and again I
I mean I just and I again the size of it
the scale of it uh I just I can't I
don't know how I could support it and
I and I know they're and I under I
understand that I really do I understand
that the there's a code
um
but
the code is there too
to make sure that everybody follows the
same rules
is there
much difference between this and a you
know a garage
I feel like there is
um you know and a garage does not have
to be
the garage is also not an accessory use
okay
yeah and the garage has There are rules
about
so far away from the rear set back rear
rear lot line side yard silence so there
are rules about garages as well just a
different set of rules sure
well it's just a classification is where
we're at right now yeah
would you mind would you mind stepping
up to the microphone man I see see this
is all being taped so yeah it's okay
the way that has structured very
um it's similar in height and you know
with wire uh chicken wire but they
um aren't on the side yard they have a
tall fence and so probably
no one sees it so no one even you know
knows about it necessarily we just
happen to be they might have built it
without getting a permit possibly
possibly like us thinking that is it's
not really how you know it's not
something subject to the zoning laws
right
but because we're on the corner lot yeah
I feel like you know we're kind of held
to a higher standard in some regard and
um you know fair or not you know fair or
not I there are other structures that
that are floating around but
just not known because yeah and the
other way we can't do it is you know
could we ask for a six foot fence and
build a six foot structure
what mass for a six foot fence that's
for sure sure and and you know we would
say you can have it six feet but the top
18 inches has to be lattice you know
right and then what you did inside there
uh I I still think of the question is
is it an ancillary structure
and if so then you have to follow
certain rules right and if it's not
I mean let's say that you have your
garden there and you had a six foot
fence and you just did a little
canopy of chicken wire over your over
your garden
I don't think that's a structure right
then I mean nobody would see it nobody
would know and you'd probably
be fine with that I don't want to opine
on what the law is but maybe it's
temporary during the summer time it does
it don't
you know that's that's the difference
here and I think that you know you you
really have to say to yourself if you're
driving down Mound or Vernon or
cassingham or any of these streets
around here and every single person had
one of these huge structures what would
the landscape of Bexley look like and I
think it would be significantly altered
sure
with a different searches fit different
homes
we have a garage that happens to look
like a barn it has since we moved in
more than 30 some years ago you know so
it does kind of fit if
this is
our potentials
yeah we're not right I
I think what kind of trees to put down
balls for attorneys you know
right and I hear you there's there's a
given the chain two and just because we
have it up I don't think you're gonna
have like a hundred people coming for a
variance for a screen I don't either
because there's not that many better
that are willing to do that work yes
that are interested in
come yeah I think it's the most
expensive
yeah I don't have any doubt about that
yes
you know all the hard work down and then
you know and it's uh and to kind of be
not your fault because we did it without
um knowing to ask and
um but then we you know it's just yeah
it's a tough situation believe me it's a
tough situation for us as well sure to
make a decision like this right you know
a lot easier to make a decision you know
can somebody uh go two inches outside
the line okay well you know maybe we can
make that decision we don't have to
sweat too much when we make those
decisions this is a little more
difficult for us as well
um
yeah yeah
no one's here right right does
well I think
from the
fact that you're done with it I mean I
know you're not done putting the screens
in but you're done with the structure
that's up
I think you need to know from us will
the board vote to give you a variance or
not I think you need to know that I mean
I don't think there's any point in
tabling it
I don't know what else would change
either
yeah a vote Yes I think I mean
I I don't I don't know how anybody's
gonna vote right
um
I don't think it would be if you've seen
it in person
okay the issues I have the one
you know seven feet along with Ben's
line with you're basically over the
defense final album even though it's
just the pillars you can see people
about them 25 feet of it it's still when
you're tolerance
the second part of it to me I mean
it's been it's very I mean it's very
long it's very big I'm not saying I
would go one way or the other if it was
smaller but
and it is a structure that's put in the
ground but so the way I feel like I have
to look at it is
I really feel for you because it's built
but if you came to us before this was
built I don't think there's any way I
would approve it sure so that's kind of
how I look at it and and
again you know somebody comes in and we
approve something after it's built
and that creates a headache went down
the road because then somebody's going
to spend five thousand dollars on a deck
that is in violation that they've
already got built so
um I mean I'm just telling you what my
opinion of it is if it was an accessory
structure on that side in that size
right up against the fence I wouldn't
vote for it
um
I don't
know he's good he's gonna use my idea
how he's going to vote okay but
eventually absolutely there's no doubt
all five of us are going to vote so can
I can I ask a different question I'm
sorry if you're going to make a
statement Sean are you done go ahead
yeah okay
I mean it's just
you know like I said I don't know
whether I vote for it if it's half the
size or something like that but it's you
know the variance but it's just it's big
and it's the fact that you I I know
there's the sun is the issue but the
fact is it could have been somewhere
else in the yard I mean
not just but just because the sun is
where it is what it is but I mean but
the point is you know if it was over you
wouldn't be here sure
um you're going to read into this the
exact same way but have you considered
during this process perhaps reoriented
reorienting it or reducing the 32 feet
to a different size
[Music]
32 feet
I can't fit a lot in there I didn't real
I didn't look at it as that large
because I'm just trying to put a couple
of tomato plants but you know it also is
the same size as what the garden was
before we were right yeah right
um
I mean well
off the posts and and do a little tap
sure I mean I can yeah
but it's not going to be
it's just not as effective and it won't
look as nice in my opinion yeah one of
the hard things about being on this
board is being Neighbors
you know what I mean and we're here we
deal with uh not with the parents but
generally we deal with massing and this
is
this is a tough one
so if we
cut the top section
down so that the
there is basically a fence that's equal
to the fence the 42 inch fence on the
outside
is that approvable or
um we
we have
but uh you know
through the Tupperware to get the
Thanksgiving time so they won't be
through the springs
they may they may but a little one that
you're putting over the top I I have I
don't think but I hear what you're just
saying yeah
all right
well well if it was I'm just theorizing
them
you know I I gotta try and save
something out of it you know if I cut it
down so it's equal to the fence
and I have a fence around it it's really
all I've got and then you know three
months out of the year I throw a chicken
wire over the top of it is that what you
guys want well
you know for us the the only issue is
where it is
right because it's it's a 20 it's a foot
and a half yeah but I won't have a roof
on it right
okay well that's something that will be
I mean this Board needs to consider
whether the structure can be there yeah
I can guarantee you that if they vote
Yes here the architecture review board
is going to have some design and oh I'm
sure a lot I'm sure
they really kicked the can on this one
thanks guys you didn't because it's no
point in discussing architecture for
hours you could table this case in it
and explore those possibilities the
problem is we can't explore them here
it's too hard for us to do
and and we don't know we need to see
exactly what you're going to propose
what I'm proposing no but we need to see
it we need to see design we need to see
it's going to be a fence that's going to
be a fence exactly like the outside of
the fence the same height
no 40 42 inch 42 inch
well if you post something that needs to
eat yeah yeah you can take a note on
what you have here right now oh I
understand I understand that this is not
going to make it
less obtrusive that doesn't require a
variance
well I'm asking what offensive variance
see we can't we're not here to give you
legal advice around nor can we give you
legal advice see
okay yeah yeah okay
so
Ryan do you want to table this or do you
want us to take a vote
okay so if if you vote and you vote the
way I think you're going to vote
you know and I come back with the fence
so I just take it to Kathy
correct we don't know because we have to
see what you're going to do and she I
mean we can't throw out a correct sorry
no you're right
yeah we need to see
the plans for it and then make the
determination then as if
but if she determines that a variance is
not required we'll never see it again
right and they'll make a determination
at the staff level sure so that's how
that works
so if you Tangled that you can meet with
Kathy come up with another design that
might remove it from having to come with
Visa or come up with a different design
that may still need a couple use that
but you're still online to come to use
that if it gets voted down you have to
start the process over
and there's some kind of a filing fee I
believe okay
if he goes to vote if he gets a vote
tonight then if he comes back to some
government he's got to file a new
application right
and the application fee wasn't zero here
was it I'm sorry the application fee
correct wasn't zero right I don't know
what it was because I can't remember but
I know that it's substantial and we
don't want you to waste that see sure
but I think you're getting a good feel
for you know how several people are
going to vote for they've told you right
I'm not you know but I I'm guessing that
you're guessing correctly right
so okay we have a motion to table this
matter till the one October good enough
or you need more time sure
October 26th
do I hear a motion to approve the
tabling
thank you Mr Turner
second chick thank you Kathy please call
the roll on the tabling
yes yes
I vote Yes also the matter is tabled and
good luck you got a good taste of what
reality is here for us at least thank
you for your time and your patience yeah
thank you I hope you guys have a
wonderful anniversary evening I'm sorry
for this
yeah get a tomato for dinner for sure do
we have any Tomatoes back here
sorry
all right let's see upcoming agendas I
got to get to my agenda here
Board of zoning and planning
why am I having such a rough time here
okay there we go
all right the next case involves 79
South Remington
the application is
bzap-23-28 the applicant is William
Murray the owner is William Murray the
applicant is seeking approval for a
variance to allow a seven foot plus
fence along the rear and side property
lines
would Mr Murray please come forward
okay hard copy of it or not all right
great that'd be great just give it to
did you upload that today
um
changes yeah
okay thank you
let you guys study it while I stable
okay Mr Murray you raise your right hand
do you swear or affirm that any
testimony you give this evening will be
the truth the whole truth and nothing
but truth yep thank you very much whoa
happy tell us about what we're looking
at here
um this must be fence night
okay
to stop and measure the fence which was
87 inches high along the alley you can
see that continued along the South Side
property line when I checked for fence
permit I found that on May 19 2023 Pence
application if
23-65 was submitted with the request to
replace the existing six foot fence with
a new six foot fence and approved on May
26th I immediately contacted the owner
through email listed on the fence permit
and explained that I found the fence was
not installed for the approved
application and that they'd be much and
that they must modify the fence to meet
code or seek a variance I further
indicated that I was not sure if the
board would look favorably on such a
request
the owner purchased the property in
December 2022 due to the concern about
being able to receive the neighbors he
decided to replace the fence with the
current fence that is
a standard 72-inch tall panel with an
additional 15 inch framed in lattice
the 72 inch high limit for a fence is
pretty standard the additional height of
the fence is lattice
which still allows you to see through if
a variance is approved by the board
this could be the first of many more
fence variance requests to come
by the applicant to obtain the screening
they find necessary I am not inclined to
support this various request there
should also be concern of setting a
precedent to allow offense higher than
72 inches for a property that is not
unique from any other standard interior
lot in a city block
okay Mr Murray how did this happen and
what do you want us to do
so when we moved in we were not planning
on replacing the fence right away we had
issues with panels falling in and we
have dogs that one of which escaped
after one of the panels fell in so of
course started replacing the fence
quickly and then realized to file the
permit do all that stuff and the um the
design is completely customized we did
it solely for Aesthetics and it does
help a little bit with the Privacy with
the way our neighbor's yard kind of
levels out it does put a little bit more
visibility into their yard
um but yeah it was solely
design oriented we didn't really like
anything that we saw at any of the big
box stores we completely custom built it
ourselves and
again you built this friendship yourself
I did yeah really yeah yeah build it
myself then you put all those posts in
the ground like that oh yeah yeah so it
was a lot of work yeah so it's
definitely I can tell you it's it's well
built it's not going to fall over
anytime soon
what's the height of the fence up to the
lattice
it is so it was the standard six foot
pickets with about I want to say six
inches cut off of the top of the pickets
to kind of bring it down a little bit
so it's not the full six foot pick it is
there's some removed
so if if this fence
did not have the lattice top
how high is that fence
I'd have to measure but it's okay just
under six feet I'd say probably
five or six inches below I can't
remember it's been some time since we
put it in
you you measure the fence you don't get
that measurement did you
to the top of the ladders
okay
and I did upload it but I have a letter
from the gentleman who lives next door
to us I consulted with him the entire
time made sure he was fine with the
design of the fans made sure the height
was fine with him just tonight ruffle
any feathers and he provided a
it's just a written statement saying
same such and if he's in support of it
so I don't know if you guys want to see
that but all right got me as well take
your word for it
32 inches and he's at eight seven that's
15 inches
is is
um anybody here for against this
application please
no I see no indication
members of the board do you have any
questions or
to help us make a decision on this
matter
no no no that was and I know ignorance
is not an excuse that was a just brief
oversight when I was going through as I
said we were building the fence pretty
quickly because we were trying to keep
the dogs contained and my wife helped me
designed it and that's what she wanted
so I quite frankly I I paid the permit
and didn't really think about it so
um we're married too we understand yeah
so it was a hasty mistake so
well
once again
we're faced with
you know every you would be
probably surprised at how many people
want to build tall fences in Bexley
probably everywhere but
we're faced with once again this issue
of we we let one person do it and what
what unless you have some extremely
unusual situation that will cause a
variance to become uh uh kind of the
issue you know variance from the zoning
code uh we have to worry about you know
if we say yes to an 87 foot 87 inch
fence here we've got to say yes to every
single 87 foot fence in Bexley and it's
just you know city council the city
council were to pass a law saying we're
allowing some inch fences we're fine
with 87 foot 87 inch fences right but we
have to work within the confines of the
elected officials we're not elected
officials they are and they make the
rules right so
um
you know I don't know that you have any
choice but to ask us to give you the
special permit and see how it goes
because I mean what are you going to do
you know if you if you lose you're going
to have to rectify the problem and if
you table it and you come back my guess
is you're gonna have to rectify the
problem
so I don't know what the appetite of the
other members is on the board because I
only know you know how I'm going to vote
but I I think you might just want us to
vote and see how it goes
Kathy clarify this is a variance request
not a special oh okay
oh I'm sorry thank you this is a
variance request yeah I thought it had
to be I wonder why it wasn't so I
couldn't read this I actually I did read
it I forgot already that's that Medicare
thing I was talking about earlier again
so uh
should we go ahead and take a vote and
see how it goes I suppose
sure so you're an 875
the code will allow posts to exceed the
height because they're usually
decorative we have a decorative yeah
sort of interrupt we have decorative
caps to put up there yeah I'm doing the
overall Mass the actual fence yeah okay
all right
Kathy let's have the findings of fact
conclusions of all
right and and you know go ahead I'm
sorry
this is the board for application number
vzap-23-28 probably located at 79 South
Remington MY consideration of the
application proposed variance and
evidence and testimony reward the board
finds that the applicant has proven the
criteria to Grant a very ovarian Express
section 122611
and a one foot three inch variance from
Mexico section
1264.03 A to allow events that is 85 to
87 inches tall to remain along the rear
and South Side property lines
shall be granted as submitted
okay
that
pretty much encapsulates what we're
you're requesting right yep okay
do I have a motion to approve the
findings of fat conclusions of law
thank you Mr Turner second Marsh thank
you Mr Marsh
Kathy please call the roll
ER
yeah
Mr Marsh no
Mr Schick no
divine
so
chairman bill I also vote no now I think
what we need to do on these situations
is we need to phrase it the other way
and and we need to have state reasons
for the no votes right okay so I think
what we ought to do is uh have a motion
to uh
uh disapprove of the application
and a statement for why you are voting
the way you are so can I here like to
put in the minutes and well I'll just
make a recommendation that didn't meet
the variance criteria
yeah I think we do yeah I think we had
to have a motion on the floor I'm saying
that would be what I think
the motion should be
the motion the the reason that we're not
that we didn't approve it is it did meet
the variance criteria I understand that
but we have to State those things on the
record in some formal format they're
telling me no no I know that's what I'm
saying I'm saying that's what I
recommend that we do and if if we want
to put that because we get someone on
the board might feel there's a different
reason yeah they might yeah and and
yeah with my vote I would say I felt
didn't meet the variance criteria can I
have a motion to disapprove
a second
second Marsh Marsh thank Mr Marsh so
Kathy now will you call the roll
to Marsh
why I'm going to vote to disapprove
because I don't believe it meets the
variance criteria
I concur with Mr Marsh that it is both
for the notice of the permit six feet
and the fact that we are now 15 and a
half inches over that is my reason for
voting in the negative
[Music]
or you vote Yes
these are both yes votes yes yes
and Mr Levine
all right
that was granted
and
experimental Health thank you I vote Yes
to disapprove because I think it's uh I
don't think it meets the criteria for
variance and I think it sets a uh uh
very dangerous precedent for for Bexley
in general and as a result uh your
application is disapproved sorry and uh
you can
start thinking about ways to to make it
acceptable and you can talk to the staff
about that and they'll help yeah I guess
I kept hearing the does not meet the
criteria for an acceptable variance what
would fall into the criteria of an
acceptable we'll send you the criteria
it's in the incentive actually city code
but she'll she'll send a copy of the
criteria to you perfect thank you very
much
all right the next case involves 24 34
Bryden
the is
bzap-23-29 the applicant is Brian Savage
the owners are Khaled and
balloons how'd I do you did good not too
bad
the applicant seeking approval of a
special permit to allow a solid six foot
high fence in the side yard of a corner
lot
on Bryden and what that uh
yes thank you very much
sirs would you raise your right hands
please you swear or affirm that the
testimony you're about to give this
evening will be the truth the whole
truth and nothing but the truth and your
names for the record are and Savage call
it baluz thank you
Kathy please give us the staff's report
on this matter please
my property line is approximately 14 and
a half feet behind the City walk along
Cassidy Island the site plan submitted
shows a fence proposed in line with the
front facade and any events within 10
either the breakfast side is supporting
landscape to preventing on Section
1264.03 A2
um I do not see a landscape plan so and
with approval should be subject to
renewed extendedly I think I got it in
an email I was looking at it with the
application that really should be
authority to the application okay and
honestly if I don't know I I focus on
Fridays before the meeting go ahead
so I don't do anything so any of Google
should be such a true review and
approval by the dream of a garden
commission if the fence is located in on
the property line
Cassidy is a busy street and a special
permit should be considered in
accordance with the criteria established
which includes landscape plan and the
upper 12 to 18 inches of the proposed
fence to be an open design defense
design submitted does not include an
open design if the board finds it
appropriate to Grant a special permit
and importance with
12 6403 we should consider
one the landscape plan
be submitted for review on the tree and
public Guardian Commission
and if the fence is on the property line
if not then it can be
providing landscape consultant
but additionally this fence should also
be screened for for resection the front
facing section
because it's within 10 meters in front
of the side
of the house
and also the best design should include
the upper 12 and 18 inch design to be an
open design
okay
gentlemen tell us why you want to do
what it is that you're requesting here
please
so
um so Collins is my best friend and uh
I'm also the federal contractor realtor
Etc here in Aaron Baxley
um so I submitted this on behalf of him
made to venison is actually going to be
doing the construction of the fence so
we've got a fence company that is
familiar with that is
um the family uh wants to utilize the
backyard from the Privacy standpoint
there there's actually a hot tub in the
backyard as well
his wife has asked us to do things with
solid fence versus having the
development of the top uh 12 to 18
inches from a privacy standpoint safety
standpoint this is on Cassidy so it's
one of the constantly travel streets in
Bexley
um and so from a safety standpoint and
try to see where we're asking for that
full six foot uh
thanks
we do have a landscape man uh the
academy
seems to put it together as a part of
early
um
uh Bart we worked with Bart overly uh
who's an architect too I'm sure you guys
are familiar with to put together a
landscape plan for us uh for the
front-facing uh of the fence we're going
to do some arborvitaes that are six to
eight foot tall and some little smoke
bushes on there to add some color and
some depth to it
um so again uh we're asking for the full
six foot from a privacy safety
standpoint for the family and then we do
have the landscape plan that'll show
some some depth and some coloration and
screening of that fence
okay
is there anyone in the audience that is
here tell us their review Point either
for or against this application
I don't see any hands
members of the board do you have any
questions or comments or thoughts
Mr Shake no you just look like you have
one but I just my leg was going to sleep
and sorry okay Kathy how far off the
sidewalk would this afternoon
well if the property line is actually 14
and a half
do you know if that's behind the
existence feeling so the fence is going
to be in front of the existing tree line
how many other properties on Cassidy
have the defense in front of the
existing tree line
stay on the honors website there are
neighbors that do have one one fence is
gray and there's every landscape you can
barely see the fence
but this will obscure the this will go
in front of the Landscaping sorry will
the Landscaping be in front of the right
of ways yeah so we're uh not in front of
the right of way but in front of the
fence so the landscape will be in
between the right-of-way and events and
the street you know the Landscaping
would be in front of in between the
street and the fence thank you yeah
I walk my dog along there everywhere and
I just wanted to make sure I wasn't
forgetting anything yeah I mean right
now there's there's pretty heavy tree
line that's that's separated in the
backyard um but there's still
right so the fence is going to add to
that and give the family a little bit
more security and then we'll add more
Landscaping in front of the fence to
screen the fence from from the public
that's good to hear that's good to hear
because it's from from Fair all the way
down it's pretty contiguous with the
fence being behind the Landscaping
which is nice because my dog can't fight
with the dogs because there's a zoo
walking down that street no I know in
this case the the tree lines right now
are pretty heavy and and to get a fence
in there or behind it doesn't make sense
it makes sense to do it in front so
yeah my only concern is the condition at
the alley and and if that fence goes
right to the corner then cars coming
down the alley and turning won't be able
to see so I think that corner needs to
get addressed somehow from a visibility
standpoint I I don't think it's going
straight to that corner I think it's
there is a setback there that the fence
is going to be on
that's right we know what that is it was
on the that first slide that you showed
me too typically your rear parking line
is like six inches off the alley
pavement
so that's the driveway for right here
right this is the garage that's the
garage
he's talking about here
there's an alley here right yes okay
you have a problem with angling man
I like that idea from the the previous
one so that actually
14 feet away
right I mean that alley runs 14 feet
beyond their property line
before it gets yeah
streets out here right right
okay concerned about that yeah
I mean we if the board suggested we
angle it we can angle it but there is
enough
clearance and some visibility so is the
fence going to go across here with a
gate for the driveway
this isn't a driveway yeah that's no
what is that digress
it's just indicating the distance from
the side of the Crush
I see
to the garage yes so what
and what's the reason for not wanting to
do the last
is the family they're going to be
utilized in the backyard it's his wife
his mother-in-law their kids there's a
hot tub yeah we just want more privacy
for any family and especially out in
Cassidy yes
I know
[Laughter]
well once again you know this is a
presidential situation we have to be
careful about but of course there's not
much question that Cassidy is getting
a lot more action than Dawson or
Remington or Roosevelt or
probably even casting ham
yeah
right exactly yeah and it is a special
term it is a special permit not a
variance here
ordinarily what are we requesting 18
inches of lattice
your neighbor across the street has
lives but like I think the house behind
does it and then I mean it's like
there's probably more without it than
there are with it but there are some
that have it required
yeah so
so this is his house
I walk there all the time and I mean
there's there's several houses and not
just on Cassidy and there's other houses
throughout that say that you have the
full effects but is this six foot
it's hard
that's just what that position that's
that's yeah
it doesn't enrolled sauce
but
add some new or six fluid in the last
did we give did we give there's a six
foot with no lattice about
uh Corner Cassidy yeah
you're asking if I remember yeah
could that have been replacing an
existing events in 2016
hire that upper portion and we weren't
calling it a special purpose
and I know that the proposed landscape
plan appears to be rather cool and
technically landscape plans are to break
up the wall effect so
um
[Music]
do you have a preference for where the
other three lives
would be to do the solids from the
families or safeties we have young
children we have hot tub where lots of
people up and down the street just wait
for practice protect us from the hot tub
too yeah
mm-hmm
is there now I'm just asking and just to
explore all Alternatives is there a are
there designs that involve
shorter lattice periods like eight inch
lattices I mean
so saving those might you know give them
more Comfort but still provide some
goodness of events
is the fence does defense
the bottom of the fence now I'm going to
concentrate on the other side of the
fence does the bottom of the fence
um
sit above the sidewalk or level with the
sidewalk or below the sidewalk you know
what I'm saying is there what's the
grade yeah the grading is different so
it's going to be
so with the Landscaping we'll be able to
secure any gaps in the fence you know
but as far as making a level or knowing
that it's level of the sidewalk I don't
I don't know that can you tell from that
photograph there
um
it's
so the the Arborvitae so that's all
going to be behind the fence and then
the new arborvitaes and the smoke plants
and so forth are going to be in front
so so the trees are going to stay
correct
the trees give you some layer of
protection correct
inside the fence line but those will go
away during the Fallen winter
that's a nice house another one that all
the time
well I said I think the question here is
with or without a lattice and I think
what you're suggesting is let's take it
let's find out whether the board is
willing to approve one without a lattice
otherwise six foot fence is not
permissible right generally that's why
the criteria for a special permit
the upper top 18 images
okay so is this going to require
a variance then you're saying in order
to get a special permit here
they need to meet certain requirements
that any
medication how to sign your offense or
while exceeding 48 inches in height on
the street side of the corner lot that's
compatible with other properties in the
neighborhood to the maximum height of
such fence the wall Sean on exceeds 72
inches as measured from average grade is
defined in section 123.06 artificially
raising that has a lot to find to be
used for rounding retainable for some
remains shelving 3172 inch maximum
height offenses exceeding 48 inches
impact should include Transcendence
seasoning upper 12 inches to 18 inches
of events you know good use of glasses
approved by the zoning officer in the
beginning of such expensive walls to be
screened from the Streetside elevation
the landscape events should be designed
in such way as to mitigate the impact of
the solid balance of a wall as it
relates to the street
properties the installation of such
funds for the wall should not create a
disability or safety concern or be
angular or pedestrian movement
and last you know chain link wire
measure with some of the materials
trying to be installed on what lines
adjacent to another growth
so it was recently passed by city
council 2016 you said
we talked with Kathy before we I can't
hear you I'm sorry I'm sorry we talked
with Kathy or we talked about the the
city before we put everything together
too so that's why
so in other words
so I I'm trying to read through that
statute is that saying we can give a
special permit for a height above 48
inches if we have lattice on top is that
how you read that
or we or we can grant a special permit
for one without a lattice it's factors
to be considered the following criteria
the last three or four seemed to me to
be pretty much your irrelevant Brian I
have a question can you
is it conceivable for you to come up
with the design
that incorporates a lattice of some sort
that also meets the privacy concerns
indeed maybe you want a table to
consider that I mean we could
um do maybe a a six inch or an eight
inch lattice on the top and then maybe
weave in some vines or something like
that to give to give that extra privacy
I mean Kathy said that there are other
there are other options not the standard
lattice that we see everywhere
mm-hmm
so we can make that a condition
okay so in other words today yeah so we
can do that and then we give that to the
you want to talk for a couple of minutes
uh privately you can just certainly do
that but the question is do I have to
wait another four weeks again well if
you table it you do but but if you don't
table it what we can do is we can put a
condition on the request and the
condition would say I don't know exactly
what it will say but that there'd be
eight inches of lattice of some sort
that is approved by the city staff and
the city and that way you don't have to
come yeah
you wouldn't need to come back here yeah
yeah no definitely I mean we've looked
at a couple of different other options
too already yeah
is that do the members of the board
think that's a reasonable way to proceed
I'm I'm also fine I'm you know since
there's other fences on Cassidy that
don't don't have lattice I'm I'm okay
with the special permit without lattice
given the amount of landscaping in this
situation so but that's just that's just
me and the fact that Cassidy is a busily
traveled Street yeah
so can we do without the lettuce I'm
sorry can we do without it can you you
can take a vote without it yes and see
how you do but you know it's a little
bit of a gamble because I don't know how
anybody's going to vote you know I'm
just one vote so I just I'm trying to be
the I'm kind of the Ring Master here you
know in case you yeah I think we would
like to see if from a vote standpoint if
we can do the six foot four
um but if not then like I said we do
have other options and we would work
with staff to um
yeah
if it goes down then we got to come back
next month
finding those are reduced it down to
eight inches as opposed in 12 to 18
inches subject to staff again I mean
there might there might be other people
who feel like Mr Marsh does that you
know it's Cassidy and and
there are other solid fences as you were
able to point out there uh but once
again you we we have the presidential
issue here we got to be careful what
we're doing
but
just some
thinking out loud
I kind of agree with Mr Marsh but I also
believe that the code was updated to
conclude the lattice for a reason
and we start facing every vaccine system
fences and
what it would provide us together I
agree yes
everybody's got to solve effects
yeah
right I agree okay
okay
so
um
Kathy with that option can you read the
findings of that conclusions law please
this is not the Border application never
being Dash 23-29 we're probably located
at 2434 Verizon Road
uh consideration of the application
proposed variance and evidence to
testimony report the board finds the
applicant has proven their criteria
variance the best success
in accordance with advice from section
12 6403 B
to allow a six foot fence
belonging these side property line with
the following conditions and open design
we've provided they make over eight inch
of the fence panel subject to review by
the design consultant and two a
landscape plan
screening for the front and side fence
is subject to your unit approval by the
landscape consultant in one private
property otherwise it's trading all
prepared initiative on Sydney right
before
okay does that meet with your your
approval then and we can go ahead with a
vote tonight all right do I hear a
motion to approve the findings of fact
and conclusions of law please so move
Schick thank you Mr Schick director Mr
Turner
Kathy call the roll at your convenience
yes
Mr Marsh yes
yes
Mr Turner yes
chairman I also vote Yes you're
special permit I guess is granted and
thank you for your patience that are
working through that issue and I
appreciate your cooperation we
appreciate it thank you the board thank
you guys thank you good luck nice
nice project
all right
next case is case vzap-23-30
do I have to accuse myself from this one
I got to think my way through this who
what's the deal on this one are you uh
Nathan I mean obviously I know who you
are so uh I see you walking up here is
this a b Hall Samson Dietz project yes
it is okay and
okay
I don't want to go into the details here
but
you've got
four people without me I mean I think
and you know I don't know my brother's
not part of the ownership structure any
longer is he you know yeah and I mean he
hasn't been for quite a while
I mean he works there though
occasionally yeah yeah very occasionally
you have many will kick him out
completely yet
not yet we moved its desk but he found
it again out in the parking lot or away
yeah yeah
uh
yeah he'll come back
you think I could save your brother
I mean why give it a list of potential
trouble and it takes four individuals to
hear the case yeah yeah all right yeah
yeah three regardless yeah I mean I I
think you've recused yourself previously
yeah
um while John has held this position
yeah so for consistency which probably
makes Mr Marsh as a vice chair will you
just take over I I will excuse myself
from this matter
uh if we could have the staff report
edness to allow modifications on the
North side Terrace the applicant is
seeking variants from Mexico section
1252-15 G1 which states accessory
structures and uses shall be permitted
only in the rear yard and show me at
least three feet and walk property and
right of the way he wants to allow a
therapeutic bath with any proposed
Courtyard on the north side of the
principal structure
in the R3 zoning this is our presenting
District the standard lot is 90 by 160.
this lot is 139 by 300. the therapeutic
bath is proposed on the north side of
the principal structure but would be
built into the Terrace off the master
bath and within an enclosed Courtyard
that could be considered a pool being it
is deeper than 18 inches and it pulls an
accessory structure which limits which
is limited to the rear yard the minimum
setup requirement for a pool is eight
feet the fact that the courtyard did not
have a roof I decided to err on the
sciatic caution and have the board
confirm what I find to be acceptable due
to the fact that it is proposed within
an enclosed space that is inside the
building setback lines on what was
originally an open Terrace the proposed
wall at the courtyard would be located
12 feet from the north side property
line in in a continuation of the wall of
the principal structure
this application has gone to the
architecture review board and received a
conceptual approval subject to zoning
approval the landscape propose outside
the courtyard would remain as approved
by the true Republic Garden commission
to which the applicant can address how
it will be screened
the courtyard
therapeutic bath as presented should
have a low impact on the neighboring
property and is screened by a wall to
propose landscaping and existing trees
and shrubs will also remain between the
courtyard and the north property
I do not see a concern but simply want
to allow the board to confirm my
findings that it may not technically be
in the side yard when it is within the
building setback lines and walls of the
principal structure
the board should confirm my findings or
provide emotion if they need to consider
this as a variance the Mexico section
1252-15 GA for accessory structures in
the side yard
got it got it
um
sure
it was um
or recommended this added to them
Mr Samson if you want to go ahead and
present this sure
um you know this is a little bit of
weird
um
case only because of its position and
its use and we've talked to Kathy a
number of times as we were trying to
plan this
um
you know
part of our efforts you know
understanding that you know okay there's
you know a therapeutic bath outside you
know uh the issue I think is around not
having a roof you know we're within the
building setback line and it is an
extension of the primary structure wall
on two sides
um that wall is nine feet tall per post
which is the same height as the transoms
adjacent coming out
um this space is actually
um adjacent and solely for the purpose
of an extension of the master bath
um versus maybe an entertaining space
let's say for an accessory use
um and so you know it's placement within
the you know primary building setback
lines the extension of the primary
buildings walls and the height of the
walls it's really meant to be part of
the primary structure simply without a
roof designated Courtyard right
um it's for you know private use for you
know like I said extension of the master
bath I think that
um you know it's 12th the wall itself is
12 feet back from the north property
line it's 21 feet back from the front
yard setback line
um and you know the plantings uh that
were approved and the plantings that
will remain on site uh form uh a green
sort of screening and wall uh we're
fairly tall I think on the landscape
plan there's a picture that you can see
a little bit of that that picture was
taken uh just yesterday and that's
basically the view looking West out of
the master bath to where the uh that
space is proposed maintaining the
existing plantings and uh sort of
privacy plantings and Greenwall on the
North side
um
I think those are the pertinent points
happy to answer any questions about that
thank you uh does anyone on the board
have any questions or any discussion
uh likely full all the time just for
temperature
yeah is there anyone in the audience
that wishes to speak to this application
if you could come up and be sworn in
please
America
I do hi
um I lived to the north of this property
and
it's been confusing to me what this was
going to be so that's why I'm here
I don't understand if it's going to be
noisy in there or I don't understand
what it is so can you give some
is it like you need to ask any questions
to the board I don't understand what it
is number one number two this is the I
think the third thing that I worry about
the noise also on the plan they put the
air conditioning units on the north side
of the property there's also the
generator on the north side of the
property and then in this plan they're
putting a TV a large screen TV on the
north side of the property so my general
concern is the the noise
thank you
so
I think we're involve it is about the
size the medication that needs coding
can be improved by staff regardless if
they have a TV on the inside that's
facing private property
um
so I just want to clarify that because
no this wall is actually closing that
right all she's talking about is in the
back yeah
yes and and that we separated that from
this application understanding that we
would be talking because it met code
that we would work with staff uh for
staff approval online
regards to the mechanical equipment
we're building Shelby Street from public
view with the architectural and or
landscape materials combining us with
the building where they shall be located
so as not to be visible from any public
ways
but typically restrained from the street
sorry is there a setup or are they
allowance
or a popular one do they have yourself
feed alcohol accessible structures at a
minimum where you put setback but in
most cases they're trying to locate
these as opposed to the interior furnace
so that it functions best
that they can put it as close to the
property line as well can you put Sarah
wasn't this what one of those
things
um it stemmed from an old uh I forget if
it was a council or it may have been a
stipulation that the bizap put on it
when we built the pool house
um we built the pool house without a
primary structure so the limitations put
on this was that the two Parcels
couldn't be conveyed separately without
a primary structure and when we came
along to propose the house we were
asking to separate those two lots again
because they were considered by Bexley a
uh joined lot and so we just needed to
say we're going to build this primary
structure so can we separate those two
legal Watts
they couldn't be conveyed separately
yeah
I think that the there was a stipulation
by the BCA that uh they just never were
combined legally as far as Franklin
County is concerned uh but they were
joined together because of the variance
for the pool house without the primary
structure initially
um I think the pool house back then was
built intending
I think that there would be a house on
there someday they just kids were young
at that point but then they end up
selling this property
okay
I'm I'm just guessing on that one but
that was
that was part of our argument if you
want to raise your hand we could have
you come up and speak but I think that's
not necessarily what we're talking about
this evening but happy to answer your
question about that
would you like to speak again
I don't think it was built that way the
reason why it was its own law was
because it used to be part of the
property to the north
so it was always its own lot when it was
separated the lot to the north it was
created into its own lot and then the
house to the South bought that lot the
pool house was built to be part of the
house to the South
the reason why it became the reason why
it came in front of b-zap was because it
said that the Lots would never be
separated
or combined and then that that's why you
guys can actually actually it had a bit
of a zoning board because they had to
require stipulations on the situation
once the courthouse and pole were
constructed to prevent the north lot
from ever being sold off because it was
a non-conforming lot not having a
primary structure so allowing the two
Parcels being viewed as one blocked
allowed them Full House and pull to be
accessories to the primary structure on
the south parcel so and the only way to
split those lines
salary would be to approve a principal
structure on the North reversal which
now makes it conform to cope
thank you thank you
yeah and your house was proposed on the
North Parcel to make that pull and pull
house on the North Parcel conform to
that as its primary its accessory to
that primary structure no longer the
fellow primary destruction
got it thank you structure
got it
but my question goes back to the sound
of the pool the air conditioning unit
the generator and then where the wall is
that staff has approved all of this
which is just on the property line which
they're now putting a ginormous TV in
some questions
if there's a violation or you're
certainly welcome to the fall uh the
Mexican police but in this case I I've
had a concern with regarding to this
therapeutic fact which the therapeutic
battle might be something different than
a swimming pool it might be in my mind
however it's it's the side of the
structure but it's include enclosed with
the structure of walls so I didn't know
how to classify it is it technically the
side yard or is it because it's within
the walls that are created and attached
to this principle structure does it now
need code so I always err on the side of
caution bringing it to the Zone board to
either confirm or state whether they
feel it should uh
got it thank you is there anyone else in
the audience that wishes to speak this
application
any uh any further board discussion
we like to hear findings of facts from
Kathy yes sir
application of her bza
pb-23-30 for property located at 202
South Columbia
consideration of the application for
those variants and evidence and
testimony report the board finds the
afghanist group of Nigeria to Granite
area variance of expert section 12 2611
Seattle net and a variance fund expert
section of
1252.15 G1 to allow therapeutic baths
within the general side Courtyard
the principal structure
without being granted as submitted
does the applicant understand the
findings of facts as read
ah yes I do
do I hear a motion from the board
do I hear a second
Levine
can we have a roll call
Mr chair
yes
Vice chairman yes
uh your motion passed thank you thank
you very much
we'll uh
wait for Mr B Hall to return
Mr Hurley are you trying to get your
stamina built up you're sitting in this
room for extended hours
[Music]
yeah
I would simply review that the landscape
is being maintained as relatively
approved by the variants so I reach out
to the applicant and they are agreement
to provide necessary Landscaping subject
to the link gate consultant
there is
for that case is not being heard and
there's nobody here for 869 Grand and I
take it all right
so that brings us to case vzap 23-32
222 North Remington Daniel Hurley the
owner and as and is the applicant and
the applicant is seeking approval of
non-conforming driveway replacement
all right you two thank you for your
patience waiting at the end of the
evening like this
do you swear or affirm that the
testimony you give the board this
evening will be the truth the whole
truth nothing but truth yes and for the
record your names are Daniel Hurley
okay and is your are you the person
whose name is all over signs everywhere
yes okay no no I'm actually the
basketball coach so you're you're the
best oh yeah yeah
uh contractor asking that the last he
came in he goes it's your husband the
basketball
all right it's Danny on the signs though
it is yeah
okay Rafael thank you very much
let's hear a little bit from the staff
about this application please
review and approval and I signed up on a
permit on the proposed word and I sign
off on the permit number for post work
beats code or when an approval approved
application information can be verified
for a variance approved to allow an
unconforming situation in this case the
applicants will requesting to repost an
existing driveway that does not lead to
off street parking at an approved
location which would be the rear yard
back in 1992 I performed an inventory
sheet betting
indexes which is helpful interacting
when something is modified without a
permeable approvement I did not find the
variance
application in the property file for the
non-performing driveway as it currently
exists
however in my 1992 inventory list it was
found at the front yard driveway at 222
North Remington was on my list and
resisted at that time and it has both an
asphalt approach in Nassau driver
to early purchased the property in 2018
so the existing non-conforming driveway
was in place when the current owners
purchased the property
other requires a driveway approach to be
concrete the owners are proposing
asphalt concrete or stone
if the board of Eisenberg to Grant from
the variance to allow existing variety
to be replaced
approach should be concrete and I would
diverge the board as to whether they
find it necessary to specify
that's all
or stone
in either gobblestone or stone within a
cobblestone with water and along the
sides as any solution
the fact that this or did buy an
existing non-performing drive that's
been there since at least
1982.50
third place the approach last year and
Indianapolis had approvement buying my
department what happened was there's a
city tree that when the city trees calls
all the cracks we use sidewalks to hear
the savings and replaces this so when
the contractor was hired to do the
overall sidewalk program those were
marked as something the city would
replace so they did the curves so that's
why only a portion of that approach you
could see
when they had to go to replace that
so just to clarify that yeah this
picture is uh from last year if you go
by the house now that that approach is
all concrete
contractor 's face yeah okay so that
whole area
yeah
so the area outlined in yellow is the
only area that's still asphalt okay so
tell us what you want to do and why you
want to do it all right
um so as was mentioned we purchased the
house
um with the driveway obviously we're you
know wanted a house with a driveway we
have two small kids and so it's a
convenience issue uh the driveway's to
the point where it's beyond repair
beyond the ability to be resurfaced um
we've had a few different quotes
um people come out and basically say you
need to dig it up and res uh re-apply it
uh asphalt is what we'd like to go with
I think just for sake of timeline and
cost that's the cheapest and
the most efficient option in terms of
getting the driveway repaired in the
near future
so and and do you have a garage in the
back then okay we do yeah off the alley
off the alley yeah okay
that's very common on this block
it's very common on this plug it's very
I have several friends on this block who
have driveways that just run it right up
against the fence
that they have to be reviewed on an
individuals now the other thing is to
access
our front porch and our
um
wrought iron tea
bags are enough for Neighbors
but you have to actually walk up or keep
going our driveway to access our front
first they don't have a sidewalk or
anything to get to their front door from
the road
yeah
it looks like every room yeah
so do you intend to use it as the
walkway to your front door or do you
intend to use it to park cars overnight
well currently both
um so there's always one if not two cars
parked in it sometimes we'll park one of
our other car out back or on the street
um but I want to come back to that in a
second but we always have at least one
car park there it's the main way we get
to and from our house you know we walk
the kids out in the morning put them in
the car for drop off at daycare pick
them up bring them home park in the
driveway walk in the front door so also
the kids play in the driveway you know
well they've got their power wheels and
stuff like that so it gets a lot of use
um
2018
and so you know one thing um you know
and talking to Kathy I didn't really
think about this before but there are a
number of houses so the blue house there
you see there's a house on the other
side of the White House and two houses
immediately across the street that do
not have driveways in the front as a
result this stretch of North Remington
actually has a lot of people parking on
the street and it sort of creates a
bottleneck I never really thought about
that until Kathy had you know mentioned
you know Public Safety being one of the
factors here but um that's actually
right after our neighbor's car got hit
sorry
and there you go that's a that was a fun
day
I was a council member's son that hit
that car but I won't out them
um anyways but yeah so you see the White
House there in the house next to it um
you know they uh they Park cars on the
street so there is sort of a bottleneck
where there's almost always cars on both
sides of the street at this little piece
of North Remington a lot of people
coming to and from pick up a casting or
uh at Maryland so it gets a lot of
traffic
um and you know we've had obviously
based on that picture we've had a couple
instances where people um didn't uh get
through it in one piece so
hmm
one of the concerns I have for these
plots just having driven down these
roads and seeing the bottlenecks
especially after school is for Public
Safety Vehicles
there's not really anywhere for them to
pull over yeah the you know every Monday
we watch you know recycling trucks uh
navigate very carefully through this
little patch of North Remington um you
know Unfortunately they have an elderly
neighbor that had the need to have the
squad called and again it's just
you know they can get through but it
does create a little bit of a hassle and
as I drive down Herman Senate I I
noticed this is probably the only
stretch where there's always
consistently cars parked on both sides
of the street so if we were to lose the
front driveway yeah with probably one
more car on the street because our
garage is no way two cars are fitting in
that garage and to park one car in and
one car in the pad would mean we have to
move one to get the other out and from a
convenience standpoint it is a lot nicer
to bring the kids in the front no
most commonly we'll have a car parked in
the driveway in a car park where that
red car is on the street or if a
neighbor's parked there which which does
happen we'll park both cars in the
driveway then
yeah I mean just because we have you
know the the neighbors next door to us
and across the street have teenage
drivers so there's you know always cars
yeah
so and I will say I grew up on the same
street and this was my childhood dream
home so I remember the driveway being
there when I was a kid
um and we also before moving here we
predominantly looked in German Village
and
after thinking about starting a family
we decided that the lack of parking uh
was sort of going to be prohibited to us
having a family so not only did I get my
artificial dream have to be able to go
to drive away with it
um so anyone who has a problem with B's
app should go deal with the German
Village commission this is way easier by
comparison
um I mean it's it's a pre-existing
condition yeah they bought the house
they didn't necessarily know that they
didn't check Kathy's list of
non-conforming driveways but my only
thing I would say is I I'd like I would
I'd be in favor of this I'd like I would
want a stipulation that the final design
get reviewed by staff I'd like to see
some design element along the side just
to make it look look nice uh and when I
say that I know I think we approved one
where they put some uh you know Stone
along just along the side or something
just to soften it up if we're gonna if
we're gonna approve a driveway in the
front yard
I think you know we should ask for uh
just something to soften it up I'd also
like to point out
in the plan that shows this squared off
area but you see a little like piece
missing
towards the front of that driver yeah so
a driveway technically should be lining
up with the approach width before it
crosses the sidewalk so that driveway
the driveway shouldn't be wider Beyond
where that approach meets the sidewalk
that distance yeah
so so whether that's a different
material or something if that's not like
a sidewalk or something well that would
comport with his request that there'd be
some design feature on the right hand
side were you talking about the right
hand side yeah yeah to soften it up and
again you could create you know you
could create a nice path or walk or
whatever you want to call it
[Music]
[Laughter]
no what a water feature
well good spot for a therapeutic bath so
I I
refer back to the
Mr Martin's question about
uh
what what's what is the rule about
parking in the front yard what is these
code section
that yeah parking's in the rear rear
yard the drive driveway is a drive aisle
that leads you to oxygen Perkins and
that's in the rear yard technically you
can't park on your driveway
technically
but
they'd be intense there
it's their condition attached that does
not allow overnight parking and if it's
a convenience for drop off
so my first opinion is
if you want to make it better
I mean if we vote it down
if I were to I can drive it until the
and secure because it's one of
the main information it's just going to
get along
it's here is because
I can't find the variants that approved
it and I don't have the authority to
lose it but I thought at least providing
criteria or information that the problem
expects to have done that yes vote on
those applications
yes yeah
this is a good picture of the driveway
since this photo
with the driveway has
I would say disintegrated even further
um
to the point that in the winter time
there's no way that we'll be able to uh
snowball or shovel it just because it
means it's coming up yeah
and to Mr Turner's Point again getting
back to Remington and the hardship if I
hate to say this
We Begin enforcing
um parking on these hardscapes in
Remington it's just going to create a
hard a hardship for the entire block
um it's
just one of those design features when
people didn't have as many cars as they
did nowadays and yeah I would just add
you know chairman you talked a lot about
you know setting press and I don't know
how many driveways were on Kathy's list
but I mean I've not noticed that many
driveways that that are like this so I
don't think there's a real risk in
setting a bad precedent if someone wants
to replace an existing driveway that's
Fallen apart I think that's maybe not
the worst president to side
um I don't know why none of the previous
owners have gotten a variance maybe
where the the first ones uh to come
before you for this but
student structure and you know and keep
the integrity and part of that
is the curb appeal which the driveway is
one of the first things that you see in
the manner that is falling apart is not
safe or safe
is your are those uh
shrubs on the left on your property or
your neighbor's property neighbors so
your property line is the left extreme
of the driveway roughly yeah
right
oh you have to look at the plan I don't
I don't recall it off the top of my head
probably because driveways are limited
to a minimum eight foot maximum 12 and a
half
I I think it's come on
so here's the kind of section I've got
the wrong code section of God I
apologize
um application of off Street person the
part of street parking space that shall
be a located subject of the Fallen
Provisions so you still be located on
the same amount of the structure or use
that that's the minute
no space aisle or any person other
driver that does not access a rear yard
parking space or garage something shall
be located in the front yard we are one
or two or three hours six or twelve
cases that is the code that they are
actually
So when you say approval do they need a
variance
they do
you know I mean it's not recently but
this they can provide a variance
evidence that there wasn't one granted
yeah
did you earlier mentioned the word
concrete
because it was indicated they would
replace it with ask but I didn't realize
the city had replaced the approach the
approach is required to be concrete okay
okay but the driveway itself is not
required to be concrete it has to be a
hard surface that's dust free
I would add with the exception of our
neighbor's driveway there most of the
driveways are asphalt
say from a design perspective
will fade into the the dark colors
better than
we've also been passing
um I guess concrete is there's a
concrete shortage or something right now
too we are hoping
to
happen finish before the winters
for the project
and not to mention with the city tree
that
um and James into the approach
so I've got the sidewalk and the other
girls which is why the city replaced and
part of the basis
right so
so
yeah I think the
if somebody were to
build a new house
and so we want to put a driveway in the
front yard that doesn't lead to a garage
you you would mix that I would not be I
do not have the authority to approve
that
so this
we're not setting any precedence here
yeah and that's what yeah it is an
existing situation that was when the
owners purchased this property
and I mean honestly even if we said
tear it out they would put a sidewalk
there that would go all the way back to
the front steps anyway right I mean when
you still have the concrete approach
that the city just installed yeah right
it would just be a little less wide but
so I don't know that we're
we've this this problem has gone back
Kathy correct me if I'm wrong since I've
been here so 25 years it doesn't come up
across a lot but when we have them in
the past we've considered them a
hardship because people move in without
realizing this we would never allow a
new build to do this so
yeah well we've had dozens of them over
the years I I think they meet the
variance criteria and the only request I
would have is that staff review the
final plan in some kind of a detail on
the south Edge just to soften it but
other than that I'm fine with it I agree
no concerns with that so
yeah I know
I know him too
yeah
did we did we ask if there's any anyone
in the audience for this oh no we didn't
let's do that okay
2200 will not be heard tonight
[Laughter]
you don't have standing do you
oh that doesn't give you standing on
this anymore but I have seen so many
times that this has happened it was a a
young girl that I I look I I don't think
we can just allow someone to speak if
they don't have standing yeah okay yep I
don't think so either yeah I've seen you
make them take it out and put grass in
yeah well of course we've had that
happen before you know all right
[Music]
um
are you okay with the uh condition of of
keeping stumping on the right hand side
that is decorative and uh and you would
submit it to the city staff for their
approval who would approve that you
Kathy or
or we go to Karen
[Music]
yeah
okay and that way it leads to your
straps or your steps which I think is a
point that uh
Sean made
your own you do
not for sealing it or something like
that if you're you're modifying it or
if there's like a section it's like
like that if this driver is
leaving that five Unfortunately
they wanted to replace just for pyramids
because they come into it I'll put that
back down
I mean that's a repair but unlike if
they were wanting to expand it where to
make sure they're not going outside the
parameters of the code
I mean in theory you could repair that
into perpetuity
right yeah yeah
put you know put a one inch overlay
every 10 years
well we certainly applaud them for
improving their property here as they
have been like you said is built in 1932
that's a pretty good looking house so
yeah and you just want to keep it
looking good and safe for your kids and
able to plow on this shovel that kind of
stuff all right so
members of the board do you have any
questions or comments regarding the
condition that was uh described by Mr
Marsh and uh uh has to do with
some something to soften the look as you
go up there and on the right side
leading up to the stairs of your front
what is that a little porch area there I
like it
yeah
so that's how you get to the front door
though unless you a high jumper or
something like that
yeah right no is it really the one on
the left is yeah
original pictures oh really oh that's
interesting yeah
that's interesting
we tried to look closely
all right with that in mind Kathy can
you give us findings of fact conclusions
of law
um
to allow the existing driveway to
replace
design submitted
for a drive
with a decorative wall
section along the South Side subject to
staff approval and not to exceed the web
maximum width allowed for Asia
okay I think that's accurate does that
sound acceptable to you yes
so
think of the house
right and that that decorative material
is what separates that from what's
actually the driveway the driver of
course you spline up with the approach
and then anything expansion on the side
of a different material or stone looks
more like the walk alongside the driving
mode
the way that it's working this question
is
whatsoever do we do you want to say the
width approved by staff not to exceed
some feet or inclusive of the
let's just say approved by staff
[Music]
yeah the design to Kathy or Karen yeah
all right
um
do I hear a motion to approve the
findings of conclusions of law
thank you
second chick thank you Mr Shank
Kathy please call the roll
yes Mrs Marsh yes yes
I vote Yes also the
variance is granted or whatever this is
that we're granting you special permit I
can't tell one from the other anymore
good luck and that's a nice project and
I appreciate your patience to wait to
the end of the hearing tonight as well
thank you
yes sorry
is there any other business before the
board
anybody on the board have any additional
if not
the meeting is adjourned