we will call to order the July 13 2013
and 23 architectural uh Bexley
Architectural Review Board uh Kathy can
we call the roll miss prosky here
here Mr Scott here
Madam sorry here
um can we have approval of minutes
is there a board member that would like
to make a motion about the minutes from
the last meeting
uh so moved for approval
second Strasser
yes Mr Hyde
oh yes Mr Scott yes yes entertainment
yes
uh okay so this is the time in the
meeting for public comment if you have
something that you would like to bring
in front of the board that is not on the
agenda tonight this would be an
opportunity for you to come forward is
there anyone that wants to speak about
something that's not on the agenda
tonight
okay seeing that thing
um we will go next to Old business so we
have the first application number that
is asked to be tabled so it is
application number
bzap23-8 the address is 2691 East Main
Street the applicant is Sarah Montague
and the owner is Matt Davis if you are
here for that application that is they
asked to be pushed to next month which
is August 10th which is August 10th yes
so we will not be speaking about that
application today
okay our next uh item is we have two
applications that are on our consent
agenda so these two applications have
been before the board before
um in last month and they
um submitted new documents and made all
of the changes that we asked for
um so all board members have previously
reviewed these and asked to put these on
consent agenda the first one is
application number ARB 23-10 the address
is 266 South Stanwood the applicant is
Daniel momont
the owner is Paul lamb the consent the
second consent agenda item is
application number ARB 23-14 the address
is 205 South cassingham the applicant is
Ken Williams and the owner is Jonathan
and Kayla George
is there anyone in the audience here to
speak about either of those two
applications
okay seeing none uh do I have a board
member that will make a motion to
approve these two consent agenda items
so moved Cross Key
second
higher
alcohol Mr Strasser
yes Mr Scott yes Mr Hyde yes Mr Crosby
yes Madam attorney yes
um I also just wanted to say that
any of the suggestions or conditions
that anyone gave me were accepted by the
applicants and they were both a pleasure
to work with I just wanted to thank Mr
lamb since he's out there because
they did significant changes since the
first time it was um
brought before the board two months ago
thank you
okay our next application is new
business it is number ARB 23-17 the
address is 2778 Bexley Park the
applicant is Eric Kramer the owner is
Rick and Chris Butler and the applicant
is seeking Architectural Review and
approval and a certificate of
appropriateness to replace a one-story
room at the rear of the home with a
sunroom
and Karen will give us some background
if the applicant wants to come on up
while I'm pulling things up
and be sworn in
three weeks
please state your name
my name is you solemnly swear or from
the testimony you're about to give her
something is the truth sorry thank you
thank you
oh yeah
because people listening at home
being strategic about what I'm building
up because we have a lot of additional
information that just came in it's my
understanding that the last three that
we had sent you right were the most
relevant to what we're doing that's what
I'm pulling on so okay um before I get
my staff report
so I want to pull up these renderings
and actually the photos of what's there
now currently including
um we'll start telling the story on the
inside this is a um an addition I assume
it was an addition that currently exists
at this home
um this is the inside I'd bring this up
because it's really important to
understand the roof issues that they're
having on the Inside Yes
um
then
I also wanted to show so this is the
structure that we're talking about so it
was pretty unclear I think to all the
board members and to me too until we
talked today and it kind of all clicked
we got additional information and I know
the board members and I've already
expressed who don't really love to give
something the same day but I think it's
worth
um going through this because it's a
pretty straightforward application the
applicant just wants to take this down
using the same foundation and put up a
glass
um horses Four Seasons actually it's a
porch a porch okay
um with a pitch through it's not
finished so it's could see so they can
use it that's basically it so I'm gonna
let you tell any more of the story but
go through these new drawings because
um one by one
sure did you want to say thanks yeah I
would say that Karen Karen and I have
been working at the Apple camp for a bit
to make sure that we receive drawings
that made sense to the board members
because there were other ones that were
superimposed and was going to confuse it
it was really confusing
um yeah let me clarify something because
I think some of the board members also
have the same question a lot of what was
submitted was actually kind of like shop
drawings for the General application of
this product not specific to this site
and since the applicant not not the
owner the applicant had never I don't
think you guys have ever saw anything we
have can I stop you for a second can we
swear women
Okay so we've applied here before in
business for quite a while my general
manager Eric has not submitted to here
before so there was some confusion over
houses yes way too much so there was way
too much yeah that's bottom line if
there was way too much and I didn't
really have time today to delete things
but I had time to add things so
um the roof material will be the same
the trim will match the trim on the
existing house and it'll basically just
convert what is a very um well you use
it clearly from the pictures but not
very well
um
so I was comfortable enough with the
additional renderings and photos to
bring it to all of you with
understanding that you know I was honest
and said I don't know if the board will
table it for further documentation or if
they'll just give it to me to work with
the applicant on Final documentation but
I think we got really far today
yeah we did uh
the room isn't visible from the street
or from the side because there's fences
and stuff like that but what they have
what is on there now when it was built
uh it has almost like a flat roof to it
and it's been leaking and leaking and
leaking
it's ruined some of the framing behind
the stucco that's there now
um has a very very low ceiling to it it
almost feels like you're in a closet or
something uh and what we're going to put
is like a Gable coming off the end of it
gives them a little more ceiling height
it'll be 100 waterproof we're gonna have
Windows in it so that they get sunlight
but also we'll be able to close them off
if it's raining so that there is no more
water damage to the inside
um we are going to install an exterior
door right there where that art that yes
right there so that uh
it will be a separate more support there
will be a porch it'll just be a really
nice porch
it's a nice usable Port uh with its own
gutter system and
uh is there a board member that would
like to go first in asking this
gentleman any questions
uh I'll go first I'm sorry I haven't had
a lot to look at this maybe it's evident
if I dug a little deeper but what's the
what are the windows or screen is it
screens or Windows in the windows
windows yeah dual pane just like you own
a home
okay like sliders or yeah there'll be
sliders we call them and vent gliders
but they're slider windows yes
yeah you can kind of see that's the
audience
was without asking
yes okay that's uh that's my only
question
Mr Scott you want to go next
sure uh there's the shot uh so just to
clarify the rendering shows the station
gutter extending into the existing house
I'm assuming it's a glitch
yeah on this side
it'll it'll end
um up to the corner of the house
it won't overhang like that and this
this
porch is is just it's a package right
it's a pre-engineered well it's um
so it's actually we get lineals and we
cut them to size and but it's a but it's
an engineering system it's still it's
Custom Fabrication yes sir okay yeah I
don't I think proportion works I think
it's uh it's actually better than what's
there so I don't know any any other
comments but it won't rot no it's better
that means it's better than what's there
yeah we did have a virtual rendering I
don't know
so the the fly around the first
animation I've seen on I think on a
project Partners come a long way with
this you know it's right there I.T work
if I can get it
yeah thank you for submitting the
additional items because that really
helped understand what you wanted to do
um I agree that yeah you're gonna cut
back that gutter that's fine uh I like
that the roofs will match
um
I was concerned with the other documents
that maybe the pitch might be too high
and it would be running into the window
above but you've answered that with the
additional material so
um yeah I think it's going to be very
nice I like that you've set back the
wall from the face of the existing so
that you know you aren't trying to line
them exactly up which is good right so
yeah I think it's going to be a nice
addition a lot of thought and effort
into it yeah so thank you thanks for
submitting the additional stuff that
help us out appreciate that
because Mr higher
is the house being repainted
I don't know the rendering show a
different color
so that might be one of the glitches in
it too uh
the house itself is not going to be
repainted no okay so the color of this
new edition will match it's close to it
I mean the pain obviously is weathered
on the exterior house especially being
stucco
um
but it's as close as we could possibly
get to it the trim color which is like a
taupe it's like a light gray taupe color
trim color I think it's white uh I think
what's on there is a little different
but uh
the trim on the house is my partner's
here right now I didn't see it's gray
you could probably swear you in sir yes
please state your name Michael James do
you saw me swear from the testimony
you're about to give this evening is the
truth I do thank you
so the uh the room is going to be the
same color as the windows that sort of
grayish so it's a it's it's called
santone it's like a a beige select with
Windows you usually either white or or a
tan and so yeah the outside edge of that
it's going to match that does your
product come in standard colors or any
color that you that they want it's white
like a dark brown or that tan a
Sandstone color and it's you feel it's
close enough to this existing color yeah
yeah I think it'll look really nice I
would just ask that you work with the
design consultant you know for
clarifying some of that but I have no
further comments yeah they have proven
that they can work with me quickly this
is all produced today
um I don't have any other questions
about it is there anyone else in the
audience that would like to speak about
this application
okay seeing none okay so the question is
do we want to move to approve or would
you like to see better drawings
submitted next month
so that we can really have a good sign
off or would you like to remand it to to
Karen
I'm comfortable approving subject to
Karen working on the details and
confirming the documents
all right
so all heads are shaking okay so I just
need a board member to to make my
findings oh yes please
by all means the findings of fact
decision of the board for application
number
arb-23-17 for property located at 27.78
Bexley Park
uh
architecture review board finds that
proposed
one story Edition
which will replace the existing
one-story
room Edition at the
rare of the principal structure is
architecturally compatible with the
existing structure it should be approved
subject to final details to be worked
out with the design consultant
you understand the findings of faxes
absolutely I just went through
television bill it's on Tuesday so will
you reach out to us or do we reach out
to you no either way I mean if you're
ready
to submit you can submit and it goes
through me first as we discussed I'll
send this to the engineers and they'll
do an engineer specifically for that
room sounds good thank you does somebody
want to make a motion is there a board
member that will make a motion so moved
Cross Key exactly second Scott
Miss Strasser yes Mr Scott yes Mr hire
yes Miss kraske yes Adam Tony yes
okay you are approved thanks so much
thank you very much
okay our next application is ARB
23-18 the address is 346 South Drexel
the applicant is Brad date and the owner
is Robert Schwab the applicant is
seeking architecture review and approval
and a certificate of appropriateness to
replace the cedar Shake roof with
asphalt shingles
and I am going to recuse myself and turn
it over to Mr hire
did I switch seats
okay
you can feel better
I'll go ahead and swear you can take the
gamble though
okay
um Ms Tony introduced the project
um I would ask for Mrs Booker to give
her a report I'm actually going to defer
first to Kathy you want to do it that
way or
sure okay
um
this
this case is here before the board
um as I became aware that there was a
roof being removed without any approval
or applications in our system so I went
out on June 7th and met Brad on site and
explained to him that he didn't have any
approval so he had contacted his hires
up to
question you know why he was sent out to
a job without any approved permit
um they did stop the job at that time
and they
dried just dried in the roof but they
were not allowed to proceed any further
and the fact that this had a cedar roof
on it that's one of three materials that
are standard to go before this board for
review and approval and it's not simply
something done on a staff level so
um I explained that because they wanted
to replace it with asphalt and not Cedar
he is here before the boards or maybe
his case as to why they thought the need
to replace the roof with something
different
yeah
um so I'll speak a little bit to her to
the Aesthetics of it and Bexley we
really value our slate roofs our Cedar
roofs and our clay tile roofs not that
asphalt is a bad choice but we try to
maintain those original natural
materials as best we can as a result
um per city council I don't have the
authority to approve any of those types
of changes to I can reprove them same
for same which is in fact what I did on
this very house
I think I don't remember the date it was
recently but
um the the house had been changed from
Cedar shake or from cedar shingle to
Cedar
um but since it was still Cedar it
needed to come through this board to be
approved for asphalt shingles so that
there have been no approvals
um there is a lot of information and as
you all have seen in the folder and I I
really would defer to the applicant to
go through it and I can bring up
whatever images you would like me to
um they have just
they have just gotten to me in the last
when was that Tuesday so there's not a
lot of time that I had to do any
analysis or you know review on my end
and I assume the same for the board
members so I will um do it today but
also I'd like to add that typically when
one of these cases come before this
board
um the applicant typically provides a
repair whatever cost to repair the
existing roof and also what it would
cost to replace it
or or an analysis by an independent
consultant we did receive a letter today
but I believe that individual is also
affiliated with the applicant who's
applying for this change I just want to
point that out yeah
and just for the audience I know all the
board members have seen this this is the
um typical
um sheet that we give or the reference
we have in our design guidelines and on
our website and Kathy and I email it
very readily of all the information that
we request when somebody wants to remove
a slate roof or a cedar roof or clay
tile roof and put on asphalt shingles
they need to go through all these
different questions so
um we had given this to them quite a
while a few weeks a couple weeks ago but
just got the answers
for these for some of the questions not
all of them have been fulfilled
um Tuesday so I really don't have a good
staff report on the responses because
that's just not enough time from Tuesday
to Thursday for me to go through every
detail and do the research on them
any other comment from staff or City
attorney before we hand it over to the
applicant
unfortunately I don't have any photos of
the existing
of the roof because it was all torn off
so
could we have the applicant sworn in
please
yes well all of you be speaking I'm
legal counsel I don't know if I need to
be sworn in or not because I'm happy to
be okay
um so I'll raise your right hand and if
you would state your name starting with
you Kristin rosin
do you suddenly swear from The Testament
you're about to give this evening is the
truth yes yes
great so could you give us some
background on this application uh Mr
Carr so my name is Kristen Rosen I'm
here on behalf of the Robert Schwab
trust which owns the subject property Mr
Schwab is not able to be with us this
evening he is out of town on a
previously scheduled trip
um Ty Cannon is here he is with
Contractors Inc he is the higher
contractor for the subject property as
well as Brad date who completed the
application and submitted it I believe
in early June June 7th 2023. with the
materials that you have received and I
will concede that they were submitted
directly from the contractor there's a
series of photos and a letter and some
supplemental materials and I believe
although it's not organized probably in
the manner in which you would like to
see it all of the information that is on
the
um standard modification request form is
included in the materials that you'll be
reviewing today I want to note and Mr
Cannon I'll speak to this in Greater
detail that the subject roof was
installed within the last seven years
and as a cedar
sighting not a cedar Shake
um and it was not installed with
breather or slats and it started to rot
due to a lack of ventilation between the
Cedar and the the top of the roof the
estimate is that the remaining life of
the roof is five years with yearly
repairs required the proposed
architectural scene shingle that is
before you would be in a cedar color and
would have a remaining length of 25
years
there's also an analysis in the
materials that you received of this
subject neighborhood
um houses on Drexel between Dale and
Bexley Carr there are 25 houses with
asphalt shingle roofs eight slate roofs
and one tile roof I'm going to turn it
over to Mr Canon and Mr Gail to answer
any other questions that you might have
with respect to the technicalities of
the difference between this the cedar
siding versus the cedar Shake
um and answer any questions that you
might have with respect to that
thank you
um I I don't know what if you want to
tell me what to pull up when you want to
I have them all in this folder sure
um but they weren't in any kind of
organized way so I just okay you need to
so if you look at the second row the
second picture over the cedar shingle
you click on that that shows you the
type of uh Cedar that was installed on
the on the garage and on the house
um this has a really thin 3 8 inch thick
butt end it's a great product but it's
it's meant for uh siding not Roofing and
we run into this every once in a while
in mirfield but not too often in Bexley
um but what happens is because the uh
the cedar shingles are so thin uh the
lifespan is not that great on these
roofs
when you install a cedar shake or a
cedar shingle roof uh you've got to have
some type of ventilation or either a
slat deck or some type of uh a Cedar
Breather and uh these shingles are so
small and so tight that they really
don't allow the roof to ventilate we
pulled the uh the roof off the garage
and there was no Cedar Breather there
was no slats this was installed over
standard felt paper over uh plywood and
the garage was in need of replacement
um this was the first roof that we did
and I do have to apologize on the permit
uh my superintendent who I've had for
four years uh was planning on leaving
and didn't tell us he pulled all our
permits uh he left within a week or two
of when this contract came in and I
thought he pulled the permit Brad took
over for him uh in late March uh and we
were surprised that the permit was not
pulled in
again I've been doing work with Bexley
for 21 22 years I take care of Capitol
University uh we just did uh hundreds
and hundreds of Windows over there you
all approved it it's really a pretty job
and I'm embarrassed that this happened
so
but the reason we went
um from a cedar shingle to a an asphalt
shingle I did price out a cedar shake
for the customer uh the price on the
garage and we did the garage first
the the shingles were 64.95 and I gave
him an option uh for a cedar
Cedar shake and it was twenty four
thousand dollars so about four times the
expense and um he wasn't interested in
it because of how it was performed on
the garage so that was the reason he
chose that
um
so that that was installed that was
finished
um and I don't know what it was a month
or two later uh he'd called up and said
hey just out of curiosity can you give
me a budget for that same shingle on my
household
um
so I worked up some numbers and I sent
him a
um a rice just a quick change order
thinking he wasn't going to do the house
you might wait a year two or five years
I don't know what uh but all of a sudden
the contract came back in so in the
meantime I'm training uh my new
superintendent Brad here and he's
working his tail off
um or maybe we've got a lot of jobs
coming in this time of year it was
really tough and uh the contract came in
we ordered the materials and I started
to do the roofing and that's when I
found out that we didn't have the
permits so that's why everything is
stopped right now so
uh my fault no excuse ask you a question
absolutely um because I'm the one who
approved the previous previous film
since it didn't have to come to the
board since it was same for same but I
don't recall the garage being part of
that I think the garage is
from before before
I can't tell you the the you have
spacers or
um of the of the house garage because
the I mean of the house
shingle that you removed I I think it's
yeah if you back up
I can show you
no which
very yeah that one right there
so that's the new that was when that was
installed was a 2019 maybe 2017. yeah I
just met closer because you can't tell
from here right right but they were they
were shingles they were the small uh
the small shingle just like it was on
the garage so I don't know when the
garage was done I know the garage was
not performing well I know from the city
records that I think the garage was done
in 1999
but I also pulled
the architecture review application
because about that's back when we had
people filling out hard copies and the
architecture review application that was
applied for
um requested to remove old Shake roof on
house and replace with new Shake roof
and then the description says native
tone White Cedar pre-treated natural
finish
and the permit that was issued also says
remove old roof and replace with wood
Shake but it wasn't shake it was shingle
all right this is what was approved so
that's I understand and there was no
there were no shingles but that's why I
asked if you had some
photos of something other than the
garage because the garage is from 1999
so I was wanted to see what was on the
primary house understood
anything else to add
anything I don't think so
anything further
no I mean the only other thing I would
suggest is that
um the board wants to hear from the
owner
um who believes that the owner has to
study that we would ask for a genius to
be here he's got a town one of the
voices that don't matter this evening
but his representative is here that's
you yes okay yes
so that would be uh up to the discretion
of the board
um at this point is there anyone in the
audience that uh has standing that um
would wish to speak about this
particular application
seeing none uh we would go to board
comments unless
um City staff has any further before we
go to board
before we do comments I had a clarifying
question on just the timeline
so
the garage was the first piece correct
when did that start they called us Andy
called us on March 15th uh for an
estimate it was a small garage
um I wrote the estimate and he signed
the contract on March 24th
so and when did you do the job
probably within three weeks
so probably in April so yeah sometime in
April and was there a permit for that
part of the job that I assumed we had a
permit and my previous superintendent
did not pull the permit and he left the
company
and then job phase two started and again
no permit
correct correct and it was a second
another job it was a separate it was a
change order it was the same job it was
a change order but with a change order
there would have had been another permit
for that as well correct correct because
the first permit assuming you had one
you assume that you would it would have
been just for the garage correct and
then the second permit you didn't pull
that either the second permit was not
pulled either
okay
um
and the you you probably weren't on the
job site maybe your supervisor knows
this was it the same type of material on
the garage and the roof or a different
material it was the same
uh the garage and was on the house if
it's on the garage they were the same
material
and the current state is that the garage
is replaced that is correct and the main
project is just worn off correct it's
got uh strident shoot stated so I just
felt we actually have four layers on
there just so he doesn't have any leaks
and it's also apparently Target as well
yeah I saw the tarp so Drive-In means
there's a underlayment or something
that's right yep so he has uh ice guard
so that's the difference is up there I
think it's but maybe put that yeah then
like I said we have three layers of the
synthetic valve as well okay that's very
helpful thanks I have a clarifying
question so on the garage it's asphalt
Roofing that's on that
okay that's what got replaced that's the
new review material on there correct
okay
and what's the color of that roof right
now uh if you look at the third row down
the first picture if you click on that
uh over to you know that one
that's the color that's on the garage
right now and that's a rendering of what
it would look like on the house I think
you have samples up here yeah I believe
the uh which is way more accurate
is that it
yeah that's that's pretty close it it
looks a little bit lighter in the
sunlight but desert tan is pretty close
to Cedar if you look at the second
picture
um the rendering
uh third row down second one
that's called um that's called Driftwood
or weathered wood that's what Cedar
turns into after weather's after a while
that's pretty close to what the front of
the house looks like right now so
if if you were to go with an asphalt
shingle and you wanted the look of brand
new uh Cedar shake you would pick that
first color if you wanted the weather
look you would pick this one here so I'm
sorry would you say it's on the garage
on the garage is the lighter color and
the desert tan correct yeah
right there
yeah how long does it take these Cedar
to weather
um it darkens up probably
in two years
it's pollen pollen hits the roof it
sticks to the roof it catches dust and
debris and whatnot so it does what
darkens the roof over time
and uh and if it starts to get black it
means it's not breathing so that's a big
problem if the cedar roof starts to get
black
there's a picture of the garage and uh I
think you said it was 1999.
that garage is uh yeah that's it right
there and it it Karen do you know is the
garage original structure to the
property or is that a later
um good question I don't know we can
check here's what was really strange
when I went out here in March
um the house loads really nice I mean it
looked like it was updated it was very
modern the White and the black and the
garage was detached and uh and I pulled
up in the alley when I first came out to
the house and uh it almost looked like a
new garage
um so when I walked inside I looked up
and it it almost looked like the plywood
was brand new there's no way I would
have guessed uh it was 19.99. it almost
looked like they put that roof on within
the last 10 years you walked in that
garage you looked up you thought it was
a new build so I don't know if they put
another roof on within the last 10 years
or not but I would have never guessed
because that roof wasn't black but the
the the Shake were curling on it and um
and there was some lifting on that roof
so the roof looked older but it didn't
look like a 25 year old roof
um and the only way you can know that is
if you walked in the garage and you
looked up it looked like a new building
would have never guessed 23 years on
that if it then why was it replaced
because the roof was failing was the
cedar Shakespeare you said the interior
looked but the plywood yeah so if that
if that garage was built in the 40s or
50s or 30s or however how old the house
is usually the roof would have uh
three-quarter by 12 inch boards those
were all torn off and brand new plywood
was put on but we're just kind of
guessing right now
we're guessing but I I've been doing
this long enough where I can't believe
it's 23 years old I'm not saying that
roof isn't from 1999 but it just didn't
look that old to me especially if you
walk in the garage and you looked at
itself it was holding up pretty well
it looked like it was due for a
replacement that route okay yeah
Franklin County auditor anybody want to
know
I was just about to pull it up but this
is what I'm my this is my concern that
we can do sit here and do research you
know on the podium all night long yeah I
think that's fair to the other
applicants who are waiting
I don't know we're just trying to get
some facts straight so yeah I agree Mr
Scott has the applicant met the
requirements of the paperwork for the
submittal
not completely
but my ass what's missing yeah that was
a nice question I I thought I answered
all the questions
I didn't skip anything I think we need
to get to the bottom of this garage
issue for one well I think so we can go
there's a it's a complicated for me it's
complicated I think it's complicated for
the board because we have in progress we
have an install condition
and then there's a decision about how we
move forward
for me the garage is done
there's it's already installed so
there's you know I don't know what
jurisdiction we have over that currently
um but
if we're hearing that
even though it's already been removed
the
the application of it does you know do
we are we making a requirement for Cedar
on this house or
allowing a new roof in Asphalt right and
I understand the backup and the things
that I did see on the condition of the
existing roof and that it was a thinner
material not typically what you would
see in a cedar roof I understand that uh
from what I saw in the letters uh if we
take it for what they are that the roof
was failing
um
so then it comes down to would we if it
was still on the building would we
approve a removal in a shingle uh and
there is precedent and there's there's
been other properties that we've looked
at this and uh specifically more towards
slate uh in this on this at least my
time here but Cedar is an issue
um obviously we would prefer Cedar but
we can't mandate that so there's a you
know there can be a historic
significance this house has been
modified uh and modernized per se in
this kind of white and black theme which
then for me goes into this why would you
put its hand roof on this building uh
and I think that seems we would never
select that um and any of the color
choices for the current style of the
lower the two floors under the roof
um so I'm not sure
how we move forward really I think we
need some guidance from the city and
staff on procedural and if they're not
that they haven't satisfied the
procedures and I'm not sure how we move
forward well and to your point like when
you say you answered all the questions
like I'm pull I pulled up the sheet and
right away I can tell you that
um and I don't know how you solve this
problem you're supposed to have pictures
showing all of the surface roof surfaces
and street views in your submission yeah
it's gone oh sorry no I'm not
um and pictures and then also a history
of the roof maintenance so we already
don't really we can't figure out the
roof is it we we can figure it out it
just hasn't been done yet
so
um it's not all answered in my view well
here's my view on this is that
um
if you had come to the board I believe I
would have voted to replace with cedar
I would not have voted for an Asphalt
roof that's a prime Street in Baxley
there are tile and Shake roofs Cedar
roofs on the street
it's important to the streetscape
yes it's more expensive but that's
part and parcel of buying that house
so if it needs a renew roof because the
roof was failing the fact that the cedar
wasn't so great to me is not really
relevant it should have been replaced
with cedar the garage shooter and rice
receiver the house should be replaced
with cedar
and I'm not
uh the fact that there are asphalt
shingles on the street to me it is not
relevant
that house had a cedar roof it has
historically had a cedar roof it should
have been replaced with cedar and that's
my position
I think the um
the issue for me listening to you know
the testimony and looking at the photos
my first reaction uh is that there's
just not enough information here for us
to make a proper judgment call
the photos uh are some of them are low
res
um they're it's hard to know
you know what's really happening on that
roof or what was happening on that roof
other than the testimony that was given
we have no photos that document the
underlayment that was there uh the lack
of or or possible presence of Cedar
slatted decking that it's all just based
on testimony I'm not an attorney but I'm
just trying to put all the ducks in a
row here in terms of what we have visual
a lot of the times when we see a a
project uh come before Us application
where they're needing to replace a slate
roof historic roof of some kind there's
photo documentation of what's under the
existing conditions before they actually
start the work they might do a what we
call an exposure window which is you
know as you know you take off part of
the roof
in order to expose the problems you can
take photos from underneath and see the
water leaks you can see the underlayment
and the condition of the underlayment
the condition of the flashing and all
that
and you know as was stated here by uh
other other board members we take these
historic groups seriously and so the
documentation is extremely important for
us to make a proper judgment call the
fact that this was all done without a
permit and is in progress uh is
concerning
and so
um I don't think there's enough
information here for for me
to make a judgment call
um based on the testimony that's been
given
if the applicant wants us to go to a
vote
then I would have no choice but to say
no because there's not enough
information here if the applicant wants
to get photographs of the condition that
your testimony States about the
condition that you uh stall when you
were first brought to the job
um uh I would you know I think that
would that would be something to look at
I'm wondering if you know in order to
convince the board of the need to
replace this this shake uh why samples
weren't brought here from the existing
roof
you know and showing us the difference
between that and a shingle or you know
what was what's actually happening up
there I also don't I just don't see any
photos that are documented here that
that give any um backup for the
testimony
I thought you were done
the panel uh the board yeah sure go
ahead
holds on your checklist
um
the pictures of the condition of the
room more piece of the roof before it
was torn off
I'm not going to speak for him I'll let
him uh Todd speak for himself but my
guess is it doesn't exist okay
um I understand that this application is
rudimentary and that we don't have the
3D renderings and the pretty pictures
and this is before and here's all the
maintenance lit and you know lists and
all the problems and so on and so forth
but what you do have is sworn testimony
under oath which is evidence not backed
up by glossy pictures but it is evidence
that the roof was failing and that it's
a shingle roof we also have testimony
that the roof is only a shingle roof
only lasts for 10 years we have
testimony under oath that it wasn't
installed properly that there's not
proper ventilation in that it was
failing so at this point there's nothing
to contradict this foreign testimony
before you as to the condition of the
roof the fact that it was failing and
the fact that these shingle rooms only
last 10 years so the choice before the
board is three things number one have
the owner install another shingle roof
that we know will only last 10 years
okay I do it properly and even properly
installed it's only going to last 10
years have him upgrade which I would
submit is not proper and install a the
the type of shingle roof that the
original applicant applied for and was
in and received approval for but wasn't
installed or to do the asphalt roof I
would respectfully submit that it
there's no utility in requiring the
applicant to install something that only
lasts 10 years there's it's not proper
to require him to upgrade four times the
cost of what it would cost to do an
asphalt Ruth and the fact is that other
roofs on this neighborhood are asphalt
as well so it's in keeping with the
characteristic and style of this
particular neighborhood
no amount of pictures or additional
research is going to change the fact
that this board has those three choices
before it and you know we would submit
that we don't have I I will defer to my
colleagues here but we don't have any
pictures or samples to be able to bring
the board
um to satisfy the board and that would
otherwise change the three choices
before the board
good can I just oh
yeah I mean I I hear you I and I'm it's
frustrating for all of us certainly and
I would just say that the only caveat
being I just received all this on
Tuesday and I haven't had the right the
amount of time I need to go through all
our paper files and our electronic files
and maybe be able to contact the
contractor who did the original roof to
get the specs and the you know I'm not
trying to be adversarial but it's just
you know we're you're saying there is no
um opposing testimony but there hasn't
even been time to find any information
so that that's just where I'm coming
from and I would like to point out that
the request according to the application
is the applicant is seeking architecture
review and approval and a certificate of
appropriateness to replace the cedar
Shake roof with asphalt shingle that's
the only thing that we're voting on it's
not a matter of anything other than a
yes or no vote whether the board feels
that the cedar Shake should be replaced
with asphalt shingle that's what we're
being asked to to vote on yeah and I
would submit that the only correction to
that is that it's the cedar shingle not
a cedar shade
by testimony right
under oath
and is there a city attorney is there
any
um
uh
availability of corroboration for that
kind of testimony under oath
well I mean that's really your that's
really the decision of this board I mean
when it all comes down to it is that you
can accept reject or question any
testimony that you hear whether or not
it is corroborated whether or not you
expect it to be corroborated so you can
certainly take into consideration the
fact that there is no corroboration and
that
and the fact that there are
um
aspects of this file information from
this file that are missing
um and what I would also suggest is that
I shouldn't say suggest but I also
mention is that they're missing because
we don't have it any longer because this
project started without approval
um and all of those are legitimate
factors for you to take into
consideration as you decide what to do
in this case
I'd like to also I hope did I answer
your question yes thank you okay when I
was first on site when this job was just
about
finished tearing it off the roof
um Karen and I have worked with a lot of
applicants and you know we've learned a
little bit about Cedar and how it reacts
and typically it's in a setting where
you have heavily foliage and there's not
a lot of light so then you start having
mold and issues like that that we're
familiar with this site had one large
tree in the backyard it certainly
appeared to be pruned because it wasn't
heavy so I couldn't understand why that
would have been a factor
um and Brad had also mentioned to me on
site that day that the owner did not
like The Faded look of the shingle
because I was trying to understand why
if this Rook was only five years old why
they wouldn't justify maintaining it if
it was a decent roof other than the fact
to feed if he didn't like the faded
color so that that was my
concern
I guess um just for more clarification
from staff
um
if the board takes the vote
um assuming the applicant will request
that vote because that's why they're
here or you have the option of tabling
um if still requested in order to you
know procure the information that's
being required that might be requested
by City staff or the board
but if we do this is this vote is not
about a solution this this you know our
we're not here to offer another solution
for what happens to this roof we're here
to
take a vote on
uh saying yes or no to the shake or
cedar cedar roof I'll call it
um being replaced with uh in favor of
asphalt shingles that's a yes or no in
desert tan in desert tan
but that is not the board
moving beyond that to say this is what
we think should happen on this roof
correct it's absolutely correct that you
have one question before you because I
think that just muddies the water if
we're going to sit here and talk about
what we think should be on this roof
fair point though
so with that I would ask the applicant
would you like to request a table to
procure more information or would you
like to go to a vote
work with staff to give staff more time
to look at The Archives I'm not sure the
question changes in front of the board
I'm unclear whether the additional time
you know my only concern is this group
is Target and you know so we want to
make sure that we're working
expeditiously to to find a solution I
get that the solution is not this
board's problem but in the meantime this
gentleman is living in a home with a
chart on his room
um and and you know so we that is my
only concern with the leg and certainly
if in doing your your research
um you know during this hearing you feel
like there's information
that upon review sheds some additional
light on what we've been discussing
um we're happy to to work with staff and
and do whatever additional research we
need to do on our end
um to make a more complete presentation
um
you know it's certainly it's not to
punch it to you but we're happy to work
with you if you feel like
um the additional information is helpful
to you
um but if what you want is a piece of
the old roof or something along those
lines I we're not going to be able to
get that for you and I understand that
that's why I it I mean I I think Kathy
and I
we work pretty quick I just got this
Tuesday or else I would have had like I
already know who the contractor was on
the private you know on the previous
installation on the home that's how I
realized that the garage was a separate
project it had not been replaced so you
know most and I understand you had a
change in Personnel Etc but like most
contractors will come out and
immediately take pictures
um and so there's always you know a
chance that that contractor has the
information or paperwork or pictures
that that kind of certainly and my
concern and Mark will understand this is
you know when you're going out and
you're talking to contractors and that's
ex parte and that's not part of this
hearing and we don't have sworn
testimony from those Personnel I started
to have a concern about
um the Integrity of this process
well and along those I I understand what
you're saying however again the burden
of proof is uh the applicant and if this
board feels that there's not adequate
evidence in the record to support
a decision and well to support a
decision if if this if this board
doesn't feel there's adequate
information in the record to support uh
the applicant's burden of proof you can
make that determination based on what
you have great here before you right now
um again what I hear this what I hear
you folks saying is that perhaps some
more information would shed some light
and be and maybe be able to allow you to
make a more informed decision that
information again the applicant has the
burden to put that information into the
record
um the fact that there might be
conversations between a staff member and
let's say a contractor or anybody else
is common practice among this board and
among all the other boards like this so
the idea that there is something
inappropriate going on which was the
implication of
um that is tainting this process is to
me
problematic and unsupported problematic
because I don't see it's accurate and
and again again I don't hear anything in
this that in this particular case that's
that staff have done that's different
from any other case
with the exception of it sounds like
staff is trying to do more because of
the way this process was handled which
was in again without it without a permit
um you know but for that fact we'd
probably have all this information and
we wouldn't be here so again it's the
applicant's fault that we're here trying
to figure this out so
certainly and I appreciate it's the
application
that
um you know what I would suggest is
improper is that if information would
obtain that was used that's outside of
this form that is used to make a
decision without us having the
opportunity to see if we could go the
same people or get that same information
or present revital information that that
is unfair to the applicant well
certainly not suggesting that you're not
allowed to look online and do your due
diligence but we don't have the name of
the prior contractor we can we don't
know asset going to the prior owner to
get that information we don't know the
name of the prior contractor so we can't
reach out and get that information if
that can be shared or happy to work with
them and we're happy to work with staff
but to to say that it's proper to gather
information and then use that
information without us having the
opportunity to view it get it and to
examine it and perhaps or submit
supplemental information would be unfair
to the applicant in the process and
again this is beyond I think the board
is trying to do
um we want to cooperate with reward in
the process and again to the extent that
you feel like
um there's additional information that
can be helpful we're happy to work with
the board to get it we just ask the Lord
work with us so that we're aware of what
what that Discovery or information is
and and they really need to do extra
diligence on our side and that would be
that would be with City staff not
directly with the board so really this
comes down to your request tonight Mr
I'm sorry can I interrupt yes I think
there's it's important to get a couple
other things on the record
um that's not what I heard you say the
first time and if it's what you meant I
apologize what I heard is that there is
some taint to this process and again if
that's not what was meant that's great
in an effort to undermine whatever
decision might be made for a purposes of
appeal later on certainly City staff
will share and should share and always
has shared this type of information and
to apply otherwise is just
unsupported by any practice that I've
ever seen with the ARB so again I just
want that clear on the record now I'll
be quiet for a minute probably thank you
um all right so
um I was I'm I was about to state that
the the applicant has the can request
that we go to a vote which is what the
application is here for or you can ask
for a table we can't tell you the table
that is up to the applicant to decide
that they want a table and and
potentially work with City staff in
order to procure the information that
um I as a board member I'm looking
forward to help corroborate you know the
testimony that was given because uh I
feel that's important that that we have
that evidence we have that information
so I would ask you do you would you ask
for a table or would you like to have
this go to a vote tonight request a
table
so
um May I recognize questions for some
information when you you wouldn't do
that first sure yeah
well I I would like to have
to the extent possible
further corroboration that the roof
was covered with a shingle not a shake
wasn't that terminology
yes they stated that it was a a shingle
a cedar shingle not a cedar Shake yeah
see not a cedar shake so if possible
finding some cooperation on that would
be really helpful and the second thing
is I would like to hear from a third
party that is not interested in this
process
that in fact that is an inferior product
that only lasts 10 years because you're
telling us that the garage was in pretty
good shape we're hearing that the roof
was in pretty good shape I don't hear
anything about damage inside so I'm I'm
I would like to understand
why replacing with the like product is
not possible
that was what we had
I don't understand why you can't replace
it with a light product
and if it is if it is true that it is so
inferior that it's
um
unreasonable for for that to happen then
I'd like to hear that from a third party
not you and not the roofers that tore
off the roof what is the I'm sorry I'm
finished uh what is the status of the
roof right now we don't have a
photograph of the condition currently on
the roof it's completely gone
okay
so did were there photographs taken of
the roof before during the removal
is that there are photographs great
right okay
okay so
this board has a has a history of
you know allowing tabling because we
want to you know give the applicant the
benefit of being able to provide
information that we feel is lacking for
us to make a proper judgment uh and
decision for vote
um this happens with design it happens
with roof replacement it happens with
you know things that are standard to
arbs you know jurisdiction I'll call it
so I just wanted to state that that you
know the offer of a table is something
that we want to show in good faith that
you know the board wants to work with
and you know show that good faith to the
applicants I'm sure there are boards
I've I've sat in front of some you know
where they they don't do that they just
go to a vote and then it's what do we do
next so I just want to share that this
forward is uh
um I think there's some empathy here in
terms of you know asking for information
by means of a table that the applicant
has that option so
with that um are there any further
comments for this application
may I make one more comment
um if if I'm just being hypothetical
that
um you do your due diligence and
um everything cooperates it corroborates
and we come back I would like to stress
the point that Mr Scott made in that the
desert tan color is not a color I would
approve for this if we went to asphalt
shingle I know I'm jumping ahead but if
we do if you do the due diligence and
cooperate cooperation sorry I'm losing
my words tonight
um and it gets to a point where you have
made a good case
I would still have a problem with the
desert tan color because of exactly what
the owner has done with the
modernization of this making it an all
black and white that that kind of modern
Farmhouse look you can see how nice the
black looks
block it I don't know what that is I
don't know what this picture is from but
compared to how how this this will not
color it looks like the cedar color but
it's asphalt so it would never
color to match I may just I it won't
weather I may just huh it won't weather
like as well yeah
um I may just be I'm just one voice I
don't even have a vote but I just want
to put that out there that is something
that should be thought through
um if everything else falls into place
thank you um Kathy with can I add
something yes uh a submittal we
typically don't like photographs of
computer screens for submittals familiar
with desert tan I'm familiar with
weatherwood weather wood products but I
think uh a more cut sheet or something
that's directly from electronic file or
physical sample which is very beneficial
and now you can easily get those so um I
would recommend that
and I would also reiterate what I said
earlier desert tan if that gets to that
process would not be approved by me
you guys have
that'll be me so if you do have one or
like yeah first I mean like okay yeah
use the list
no I know I I actually
um I we we've taken it long enough but I
do this for several different
municipalities and cities and some do
have approved lists and some don't
um we don't here in Bexley and I think
it's beneficial to the applicants
because you have a bigger range to
choose from it makes it a little bit
more subjective but I think I'm not I
think I'm being pretty objective gray
black dark gray would way better fit the
aesthetic of the new
um color scheme I agree 100 of the house
so the applicant has requested a table
and so now Kathy there's no finding
effects and and decision of the board
this is now just a straight vote for the
table and I would remind the board and I
I would ask actually for some guidance
on this if we go to a vote and the vote
for the table is majority no
then what happens
well the vote for the table is majority
know then you would have to vote on the
actual requests to the application based
on what do you have before you okay
thank you
uh and we should ask for a table to a
date certain
all right so you're ready
which I believe August 10th August yeah
African has requested a table to August
10th does someone want to follow that
motion so move Cross Key
oh second
second Scott
[Music]
um Mr Strasser yes
croskey yes
Mr higher I'm the I'm sorry Mr Scott yes
chairman hire no
thank you see you next month
oh so wait for uh
Ms Tony to return to the chair yeah
okay our next application is number ARB
23-19 the address is 35 South Gould the
applicant is James Knox the owner is
Meredith and Jonathan Stout the
applicant is seeking Architectural
Review and approval and a certificate of
appropriateness for reports and deck
editions at the rear of the home
uh Karen will give us some background
okay
thank you thank you thanks for thanks
for your input
thank you take care folks
I'm Sir James Knox you families were
from the testimony you're about to give
this evening is the truth yes thank you
okay
um
I took some other pictures of the
property so you could see a contest and
also just um so that you can understand
that this truly is the front of the
house
thank you the board members
um this uh this is a site plan this this
is a um
split level at least as yeah split level
yeah
Mike and
I mean I think it's a pretty like it
seems okay to me there's a few things
that I have questions on and I'm gonna
go to the elevation
I was I was a little concerned about why
this this problem can't somehow I know
it's because of the doors but are they
standard size that you can
align this and maybe it's just me
um and is this still
a um
did you have this at one point label do
I remember as a as a chimney
shake that out no I don't believe it
it's not in one
minute oh yes I mean there is a uh
excuse me there is a uh
um
[Music]
a fireplace event-free gas fireplace
it doesn't require
a couple of my questions were the open
the open lattice is there going to be
anything here
um I believe there is some Landscaping
that the the homeowner is going to be
doing but I am not familiar with
yes
please state your name Jonathan style
the islamics were from the testimony
you're about to give this evening is the
truth yes thank you yeah why didn't you
walk through Jonathan can you speak into
the microphone too sure uh yeah that so
underneath the sun room like that's
going to be closed off
uh and then but then the deck that comes
off of it
uh we were going to put uh
Landscaping hydrangeas and stuff
so it's not there now right now it's
just a really ugly dick
is there anything else that you want to
explain about the project or do you want
me to just go to board questions
um questions
is there a board member that would like
to go first
I don't have any questions
I I have a couple questions I'd like to
know what the height is under that deck
that's open the open port part
that's six foot and that's currently
what the deck is now and then it goes
down to a three foot on the second
elevation right we want to do it like
that
to the left of that well my left
on that picture is actually a house
apartment building
so every time I step out of it like that
I just staring at a bunch of the people
looking out the windows at me so the
second level is why we put a little bit
better privacy so I can actually put a
drill down there and actually enjoy them
inside so this is not what you're gonna
have is it this no no that's what's
there now that's what's there now yeah
in reality it's going to be higher no
it's going to be the same height well
actually probably a little bit higher
because it's going to be flush with the
door there's going to be a different
door but the sliding glass door there's
now with the drop off there
the like the deck itself
the the portion itself is going to be
flushed and then they drop off the deck
yeah but that doesn't look to me like
six feet
if the railing is three feet
then the portion that's underneath looks
like it's maybe five feet maximum right
clearance uh there is the again the
porch itself is flush with the house
right floor and then there's a step down
to that first deck right we're losing
yeah almost eight inches there okay
that's why the the height of the uh
starting there is look it's going to be
a little bit less there right so it's
roughly maybe four feet you're gonna
have an opening underneath that's four
feet high clear clear underneath of the
deck yeah it's gonna be about four and a
half is it possible that you could put a
lattice screening or something for that
I mean if the Landscaping is not going
to keep you know raccoons and stuff from
building nests in there I mean why not
why not block it off
yeah it's open now but if you put
Landscaping screening it just it'll feel
like a cave for them I just wondered if
it's possible to do that
that's part of your system right you can
do lattice screening for porch porches
that are have the underside exposed
oh yes yes I mean not necessarily I mean
we typically go with
um vertical boards yeah or vertical
boards yeah
goodness
it has a lot better appearance right
will you use that for storage
that underneath the sun room now what
yeah that picture the part that's
already blatted off yeah
okay but the outside part you'd you you
really don't want to lattice that or put
the vertical boards on the the part
that's exposed well if you look at the
plan of it with the drop-off or whatever
I just thought I'd get messy there uh
where it said this part where it says
open under deck no no skirting make sure
via the overhead oh maybe you see how it
drops off there like I don't know how
you do it with the steps the way that I
like them
I guess you could but I see
all right that's really my only comment
I have no other comments I just would
like to see it you know have a nicer I
mean it's unusable space really you know
what do you do with that how do you make
it look nicer even if you're putting
Landscaping there it'd be nice to have a
lattice or a vertical board system
behind the the the Landscaping
right now thanks that's all I have yeah
there you go
Scott you want to go next
uh sure
um at first I thought this was visible
from uh the front but there is a fence
right so I I made a comment to you that
I wouldn't want to see open deck
elevated from the front yard but it
looks like it's screened by the
backyard fence right in that photo so
that concern is gone
um the the vertical treated pine the 1
by 6 Pine how is that supported
there's obviously a backing structure to
that or you're just hanging that
is that a fence I mean how are you how
are you supporting that one by six five
there is uh stringerboards um
so you're going to do horizontal banding
and then just screwing into that yes
and then up at the top where the uh the
joist band is of the porch that will be
attaching the
um
vertical skirting there as well is the
face of the one by six treated pine
skirt flush with the structure above yes
so the tops of those one by sixes are
protected by the building above or are
you capping the what is the what I'm
worried about is your one by six is
going to deteriorate pretty quickly and
warp and start
start kind of interesting and bending
the trim boards and so forth
um around the uh uh side side of the
cement siding panels they have like a
picture frame yes right so again that
above the above the skirting and the
skirt is flush or is it just recessed
probably recessed underneath yeah I
would recommend that because you don't
want the open grain of the 1x6 isn't
going to hold up well right so and it's
it's it it's treated Pines so it'll be
okay but it's not going to hold up
correct so that and also I worry that if
it's not well supported like at least in
the middle a top bottom in the middle at
this height it's going to start to
really move around yeah so it's just
it's you know you treat it like a normal
fence uh where you have a middle support
so it's more of an issue of construction
uh that will be looked at more from the
building department but I think for
Aesthetics it's something that we'd want
to maintain
um
but other than that I think that I think
the plan is interesting I think you
could create a little bit of a pocket of
hard area to get to to clean out leaves
and whatever else but um
other than that I think it's
I think it's fine
it's Crosby
yeah um so I agree with what uh Pete
stated uh in terms of the skirting uh
and and then I also agree Karen with
your I with your comment about the
alignment of the column where this you
know the windows if you go to that
elevation and then the door so just like
if the door can shrink slightly so that
you have a nice you can work with Karen
on that
um
so the things that
yeah so the two windows see yep yeah see
the two windows up above and the space
between them and then your door is sort
of encroaching into that and it's not
like that space isn't carrying down so
it just looks weird it's off it's not on
Center it's like not on Center yeah I'm
at the line the door Edge or just work
with Karen I'm kind of agnostic on it
like I don't know how to think about it
because
it does this does match up perfectly
with the stairs so it's like a yeah I
don't know it's a weird little play of
asymmetry symmetry well look I'm sorry
is this a kit is this a custom built
structure entirely custom built so
you're not buying parts and putting that
uh stick build so there's some
flexibility other than door sizes yeah I
believe we can probably need enough room
to put the light there where you see the
light yeah actually they're looking at
expanding that wall making it larger so
you're gonna give me a smaller door no
the door can stay we've got
um
I mean you can't be right flush up
against the the wall the outside wall
but we can
maybe
scooted over yeah maybe four inches
and that way I mean we can work a little
bit more wall that would align a better
with the uh the vertical uh post there
between yeah right here transom Windows
yeah
just how how those are shifted
oh these don't really it's what
Architects obsess over yeah
you're you have symmetry and then
asymmetry so it's like which do you want
you know I don't know
that's all I have some architecture yeah
and it's helpful information
what that being said it's on the back of
the house yeah and for me it's a
non-issue it's
that's why I said just work with Karen
we have one foot on each end
uh between
uh of wall before you get to the door
opening or the window opening uh there's
one foot of even spacing on each end of
the wall of the wall and then we have a
also a uh one foot uh space there in
between
you know the windows yeah I think it's
something we can work through
okay so I think that leaves out to me I
had the same concerns as what everybody
else did and I'm totally comfortable
with you working with Karen to to get
through them so
um so I guess it sounds like we are okay
to just move
to vote are you okay with that yes do
you want me to read the findings yes can
you please read the finding finding is a
factory decision of the board for
application number
arb-23-19 for property located at 35
South Gould the architecture review
board finds that being proposed porch
and deck Edition
are architecturally compatible with the
existing structure
and approve a certificate of
appropriateness with the condition that
the applicant work out the door
alignment and skirting with the design
consultant
understand the findings as they're red
yes
is there a board member that will make a
motion so move to Scott sorry
thank you
I will call the roll Miss kraske yes
Miss drosser yes Mr higher yes Mr Scott
yes Madam Tony yeah okay you are
approved thank you thank you so much and
good luck
okay our last application for the night
is application bzap 23-20 the address is
2572 Brentwood the applicant is Kiernan
Smith the owner is Marion Handler the
applicant's seeking a recommendation to
the board of zoning and planning for
Architectural Review and approval and a
certificate of appropriateness to
replace an existing garage with a
782 square foot garage
is the applicant present
while you're
coming up I'll have Karen give us a
little bit of background
okay
um and just to be clear because I
realized I I don't know which version
you're you all are looking at it's all
updated now on on the website I think I
forgot to put that it was seeking a
recommendation to the board of zoning
and planning yes it is so not of not a
because this is this needs zoning so it
needs to go to the board of zoning and
blaming and I'm sorry I wasn't listening
so I don't remember if you said a
recommendation or not but I just wanted
to clarify that because I had caught my
own mistake earlier
um
okay let me bring up
this this home um currently has a it's a
beautiful home on Brentwood let me show
you some pictures
um
I added some pictures to your
your application today
um
beautiful home on Brentwood it has a um
arguably a garage that could use being
replaced
uh let me find the pictures of that this
is the existing garage
um the applicant would like to put in
its place a garage with
um an extra kind of little living space
um
or just a flex room if they Flex through
yeah I don't know what we're calling it
these things
we don't want to call it living space
yeah sorry Flex space it doesn't have
any of the definition of living space
but this this is the plan
um it's a pretty straightforward plan so
it's more of an issue of whether
um all of you think if it is approved
for a zoning variants that the
architecture is acceptable can I ask a
question what is the zoning variance
that they are going for is it the
placement on the lot or is it the size
uh it's a size 684 square feet is the
standard and they're proposing the 782
square foot this is a good drawing to
look at
because this will show you the existing
and the proposed
so it meets all the requirements of
where it sits on the lot
uh correct okay
I don't have much to add if you want to
walk through and I can walk through any
drawings with you yeah
this morning yes can we throw you in
please oh sorry
please state your name Kernan snap
you saw me swear or from the testimony
you're about to give this evening is the
truth I do thank you
um yeah so I think you covered it the
basis of it it's a really
straightforward project it is an
existing garage that is pretty getting
pretty close to derelict there was some
wind damage to it it's a flat roofed
building uh the existing roofing is is
out of date and it's been partially
ripped off
um as far as I can tell on the Otters
website the original garage was built in
1922 the same year as the house
um that being said it wasn't build great
the spacing of the structure and inside
is two feet on Center everywhere so it's
it's you know showing its age
um there is on the existing building if
you can you go back to the existing
photos real quick
yep
oh of the garage sorry oh sorry
um
so there is it's like a two-car garage
and then and then another door on I
think that part of it was added later I
don't have anything to confirm that I
just wanted to add that to
um your background information
um the existing house has actually been
updated since that picture has a new uh
black framed windows uh and I believe
they put a new roof on it uh it looks
fantastic they've been constantly
upgrading this house since they moved in
um so their main goal out of this
existing or out of the garage here is to
essentially rebuild it and we're gonna
propose a gabled roof which fits the
context of the neighborhood much better
I think this is the only flat roof that
I saw on the street uh it's also
um the North and the East walls will
remain exactly where they are kind of
back to the non-encroaching on any sort
of setbacks or anything like that from
when it is existing we just want to grow
it ever so slightly into the backyard
and what that achieves for them is is
space really for two cars and then that
that small Flex space and we're just
going to flex space because it's not
clearly defined it's just really for
entertaining hangout spot there's going
to be no Plumbing in there whatsoever uh
it's just going to be electric and
Lighting
and then I also want to add you'll see
in that elevation a small Nana wall
style product uh that can fold uh and be
open as kind of like just a little
inside outside counter area and then a
French door next to it as well
um what else uh material wise uh
planning on matching existing house
which is a vinyl siding product black
asphalt uh standard gutters
um
black framed windows doors all that just
like I said to match the existing
structure
um back to the variants I also just
finish on that the only variants that
we're requesting is the
1252.15 which is part of the zoning code
and it has the table which allow sets in
allowed square footage for your garage
based on your your lot size
and currently that's limited to 624
square feet
however the existing garage is outside
of that it is in this non-conforming it
is at 660 square feet
um so we're proposing to up that to 782
and that breaks down essentially uh to a
25 increase over what is technically
permitted and uh 18 and a half percent
larger than the existing structure so
we're requesting the variance because
overall we think it's an improvement to
the neighborhood to the house to the to
um the owners um and uh
yeah so that kind of wraps it up let me
know if you have any questions I'd be
happy to answer them
okay is there a board member that would
like to go first
I'll go first I just had a couple
questions you exterior lighting planned
on the garage I don't see any lamps or
yeah I'm sure that'll be something we
can we can add yeah it just hasn't come
up in our conversations but absolutely
if that's something the board would want
to see especially if you want to use it
as a flex space and entertain out there
it seems like that's kind of a missed
opportunity
um and also uh I'm trying to get my
bearings here the
the the alley
on that long facade with nothing on it
any cons so it would be let's see
Drive-In alley it drives in from the
front sorry I should have clarified that
they have no they currently have no um
rare access to it okay and they desire
to keep it that way okay I'm getting my
bearings now um
yeah that's it that's all I've got
it's crafty one goodness sure
um I think the only thing
uh is that maybe consider
having the garage doors be the same
color as the rest of the you know doors
and window windows
I agree with what
Joanne brought up to
in terms of the lighting
they're higher so I know that the
existing garage doesn't have anything on
the Alley
um was there ever ever any consideration
to do some kind of
you know offset or do something just to
break up the monotony of that long
facade I mean Architects you know we
like to play with planes right so could
there have been anything to
help like for instance
I mean one idea I thought of was you
know to create like a little recess in
between two rectangles that would be
where you could put like your recycle
you know
um or something just to break up the
plane I'm just
it's just so monotonous and it's so
unvexley that the the existing garage is
so unvexley but you know can we do
something on that facade to make it more
Bexley which you know actually is about
details you can we don't have these big
planes we like to break everything down
we like to have nuance and and little
things happening niches and you know
trellises and things like that I mean is
there anything that could be done to
break up that long length Bill are you
talking about on the Alley side yeah
I was starting to go there and
decided to bite my tongue but I agree
with you I mean I can't help it you know
I'm on this board for a reason and one
of them is to try to convince applicants
to take it another step right to go
another step I understand budget I
understand all that stuff but is there
some way I would think of making a
recess for my recycle that I could
access from the inside so I don't have
to actually walk all the way around you
know and dump stuff in by going out and
around and walking that long length down
there to get to those those recycle bins
it's just you know something like that I
mean we can if you want to jump to the
existing photo that might that might
help this conversation a little bit yeah
I'm looking at them here yeah
um yeah I mean that whole area I don't
know if that's where they keep it all
the way down there I totally understand
your point
um you know what I mean like even if
even if the recess was here you know and
and these were here and you had like a
you could lift it up from inside the
garage and you could put your stuff in
without having to I don't know I'm just
trying to think of a way to break that
up because it's just so unbexley yeah so
this I mean so I don't live I don't live
in Bexley I have friends that live in
Bexley and I've been Bexley many times
member of your pool
um but um I don't live far away and we
live the same Columbus Alleyway where
everything's accessed from the alley
there's door or my own personal garage
has access from the alley I don't have a
driveway and it seems like it seems like
an odd thing I see a lot in bexley's
where for some reason you have an alley
but it's there's no access from it I
mean you can see these two other garages
both of them on for context these are
across the alley they don't have any
access I mean the one has a mural on it
the one has a window I suppose it's just
it was something kind of curious to me
that I noticed I don't know if that has
anything to the conversation but well I
mean I wasn't going to ask the question
because you already stated that the the
your client doesn't want to you know
change to Alley access for this new
garage I imagine it's part of security
they just you know prefer it that way
you know it's safer for anybody to come
in and out from their own yard yeah
there's there's lots of
um documentation on you know the goes
against that oh I believe but that's
just I'm sure it's psychological but but
I mean it's so be it this is what they
want but I just think that facade needs
to be broken up somehow I mean if we're
going to make Bexley better
you know more beautiful uh then I think
it's worth the design consideration and
I I honestly you know would make that a
condition of of of this
if I can if I if the other board members
feel that that and you would work with
the design consultant you don't have to
come back here but I would make it a
condition that something has to happen
on that alley to to to break it up
but you understand what I'm saying about
like a recess or something yeah I don't
know if that's the way we'd go but a
buttress I could see so I could see
something I could see something like
like a lattice work or something that's
maybe physically testable and that you
could grow a Vine up or something to you
know some sort of natural
um feature but I I don't think the
contractor the owner is going to go for
a recess unfortunately well some some
houses and particularly in South Bexley
will actually do
um like Arborvitae or something if you
have the room you know in that stretch
to just line it with arborvitae right is
there enough room on your property and
no as far as I can tell they have about
and that's what I've shown we're going
to get a survey before we start any sort
of construction to verify this but um I
believe they have about three foot there
between the terrific so they can do
something like that I think they can
tear up there's asphalt right now that's
there but they could tear that up as
part of this and do that yeah that would
be my request is something even if it's
strange on a Landscapes would be very
nice so I walked down that alley all the
time so well something that's Evergreen
would be preferable because in the
winter time yeah something winter hardy
yeah right especially considering
they're requesting a variance yes yeah
that would be my condition I
actually think that would really help
with your variance argument yeah I've
been totally totally open to that
that's all I have
oh I did want to clarify maybe I didn't
hear but the eve height and the ridge
height are all within the requirements
for garage for Bexley
yes okay they're only looking for a um
area okay
Mr Scott
because you submitted them well first of
all I think appropriateness for scale on
site plan is fully supported I have no
problem with the increase of that
basically specifically because how the
garage is laid out and uh and I the
backyards is basically living so I think
this adds to that this photo alone as
your submittal uh as a reference between
the existing garage and the neighboring
is across the alley uh you know we You
could argue that they're big blank walls
but they're actually very significantly
not so starting on the bottom left the
brick brick facade is is shorter in
length but also has a window right so
there's one one breakup of that over off
the side but it also has a base uh and
some other things around it the photo to
the right uh they may have a mural on
the actual facade that may have a window
that's been covered up I can't tell
painted window so this it's almost this
window but if you look at the
architectural detail or the Landscaping
detail there is a stepped stone wall
step back with landscaping and then the
fence so there's a there's a very
strategic and very designed aspect of
that alley and I didn't see anything in
your architectural submittal here about
how to address because you can see
what's happened to the existing garage
over time uh it's it's getting trashed
from the alley and the trash and the
dirt and so I think addressing to me I'm
not as concerned with I would love a
window in the garage because I think
there's having natural light inside the
garage where your car is is I know
there's some security risk but it's
really not that big of a deal everybody
seems to have a window
um
but it's really even more important for
me to see how you're addressing the the
actual Alleyway because basically alleys
there is a big initiative to kind of
clean those up is to improve them
that's part of that a real mural that
you're seeing there's a lot of that
going on with fencing
um and you've given some character
um to these renderings of course which
we'll talk about the second uh I I think
we would have been good to see uh the
other side
um and how you might easily address that
through just maybe even some simple
landscaping or a raising uh from the
alley asphalt to a step to the building
uh in a either a landscaping wall or
other things it could you know I do
agree that cutting a corner off or
allowing some access from inside for
trash and recycling would be on a
day-to-day or every Monday morning uh
that we deal with uh is very very
helpful but that's owner owner's uh
issue this rendering specifically uh
you're calling out a five inch vinyl
siding
um is that to match the vinyl is there
vinyl sunny in the existing house
correct on the garage on the house is it
a house the house is existing sorry
um no I think the existing garage is
wider than that I don't I don't I
actually don't care about the existing
garage I care about the house so it's to
match the house the house has five inch
vinyl siding
um that looks like I see the signing I
just don't know if it was vinyl
um so the rendering is is great right I
think I actually like the quality of
your rendering so that's off to that and
I appreciate that you put those together
but it actually doesn't represent what
vinyl siding and its details have uh it
would have corner boards right vinyl
Corner trim pieces that are pretty bulky
uh and trim around the The Rake uh and I
think you're showing some in instance of
trim around the doors and windows but
not knowing exactly what that product is
I think that's a it's a little bit more
of a gesture instead of a detail so it
might be interestingly seeing how that
works I think the lighting on this is as
one of the board members said is a
critical aspect to this design one
because it's going to accentuate the the
liveliness and the atmosphere of the
project and in the evening when this is
you so I think it's incredibly important
but it's actually also architecturally
significant where you can use the the
one or two lighting features as an
architectural element to help kind of
settle the building down
um in its character I'm also concerned
that the white I'm assuming these are
vinyl garage doors
uh we had not specified one episode yeah
so I think that's important uh I'm not
so convinced uh that the color has to
match exactly it's dark but I would
think that other materials other than
white would be appropriate so if there's
a wood tone or if there's a you know
there's other products that are out
there I don't know the exact price point
that you're at but I would be interested
in seeing what other uh options you have
there instead of just a monotone white
yeah the client here is not going to go
cheap super cheap on anything they're
well there's they have a nano wall
styled window so right there that's half
your budget so uh you know those are
expensive so um I I know the money is
being spent on portions of portions of
the building lights are not expensive
adding a little landscape feature or
some landscape growth on your Alleyway
or whatever else you decided to do uh I
think is is not a huge cost impact then
it could help break up that wall
um we do have a Bexley design guidelines
um it is not a mandate but it is online
and available for you to review if you
haven't seen it I would offer you to see
it because I think you are in licensed
architecture uh I think you'll enjoy it
uh there was a lot of work that this
board and I I wasn't personally involved
so I can boast on them uh that they put
together a very comprehensive
architecturally bexley-specific
architectural guidelines that I would
recommend you review and look at and one
thing you'll notice if there's a pointer
you have a laser pointer yeah you want
to look at a boxed Eve
oh Queen frown on that type of a detail
index like
I'm surprised Mr higher I was actually
waiting for you to say
you were focused on you were focused on
many of the aspects it's been an
interesting uh I would recommend looking
at other precedent and not that would be
maybe my number one I think there's some
character here that if you even just
kept your rake straight and and sloped
your your soften it
um it's it's a little bit harder to
build of course but it's not that much
difficult more difficult and it gives
you a much different character to that
architectural style and much more
appropriate obviously leaning towards
well there you go there's your precedent
right there so if you really looked at
those those ways that those those Gables
come down and the the rakes are
returning uh they're really tight and
fairly small
um that you can pull from it and utilize
that that wouldn't I don't think I'd
cost now if you're doing vinyl soffits
and vinyl wrap and all of that it's
going to be a little bit more difficult
but I would also suggest you don't
vinyl siding we understand it's
especially if it's matching the existing
is great but you do not have to wrap and
I would highly recommend not wrapping
your soffits and your eaves and all on
that vinyl it's not good
they won't be happy with it
because you have this other character
right I think you have other things
going on the garage doors do add
character you have this kind of activity
and and you obviously your rendering's
pushing for that uh this kind of open
space on the inside out but uh
those details are going to be pretty
important so I would and that's all kind
of laid out in this guidelines it is not
a design mandate it's just suggestions
and things for you to look at but it's
pretty comprehensive so
as a condition
yeah yes okay thank you
uh no it doesn't have to come back
because I don't think those details are
significant in that if you're working
with them they're comfortable which
you're seeing I'm fine with that you can
keep this moving forward if you see uh
if staff has a problem or sees things
that are that need to come back uh that
we're I'm confident that that will be
the case so
is that it
yes
okay I would like to ditto everything he
just said literally
um because the thing I think is that
this doesn't I know you're trying to be
a little bit more contemporary than the
house but it really just doesn't look
like it relates to the house to me so by
changing the eaves and uh cutting it
back on the end and you know offsetting
things uh that long wall against the
alley definitely needs a window some
Shrubbery
um a step in it all three would be
amazing so yeah yep okay
um
this being a recommendation to bees app
we can remain it to you still so it can
be recommendation and as well as working
with you okay
thank you yeah so do you understand how
that works
um yeah you're you're passing off to you
to follow through on the on the design
elements and my suggestion is I know
it's tight time frame but do as much as
you can before bezap yeah the end of the
month two weeks yes yes so if you make
all these change make these adjustments
and then you go to bzap and they see
that you've already done what we're
asking for and Karen has signed off on
it then you can be approved um in their
meeting and go forward so great yeah so
I I just suggest that you go ahead and
make those changes yeah I don't see any
problem with that I think I don't think
it's a huge time it it speaks volumes to
the board of zoning and planning when
you've taken these suggestions and
implemented them before you go there
absolutely
and is ever is are all the board members
okay with it being remanded to Karen
okay
okay so what
I'm going to have Kathy read the
findings of fact
the findings of fact and decision of the
board for application number
bzap-23-20 for property located at 2572
Brentwood the architecture review board
recommends to the board of zoning
planning for approval of a certificate
of appropriateness with conditions or
modifications identified as follows
number one applicant add detail or
change to break up the wall along the
alley two garage door style and detail
be studied and provided three uh Eve
detail to be modified to a straight rake
if I said that correctly
possible addition of a window on the
back and did you already say that you
can just put breaks to match house yes
breaks I met Chows
and that we're also asking for lighting
to be shown
number four show lighting
and Landscaping um
and I have the detailer changes to break
up the wall along the alley so a window
would also yeah
or window but leave it yeah because
he'll work with Karen on those knowing
what the direction is okay
all right
okay do you understand the findings
effects as she read them I do okay
all right is there a board member that
will make a motion so moved Cross Key
second to Scotch
yes
Madam Tony yes you are approved thank
you good luck thank you very much thank
you
good luck and we have nothing else so we
are adjourned